Pessimists always get to say ‘I told you so’

Whether the government dictators decide to restart the economy tomorrow or six months from now, there will be a spike in coronavirus cases and deaths and the fearmongers will delight in saying, “I told you so.”

They are just delaying the inevitable, though possibly flattening the curve a bit by stretching out the frequency of contacts and thus cases of COVOD-19. Is it worth it? What is the return on disinvestment and joblessness?

Another sure thing that everyone knew is also turning out to be not so sure: We need more ventilators.

AP is reporting today:

Generally speaking, 40% to 50% of patients with severe respiratory distress die while on ventilators, experts say. But 80% or more of coronavirus patients placed on the machines in New York City have died, state and city officials say.

Higher-than-normal death rates also have been reported elsewhere in the U.S., said Dr. Albert Rizzo, the American Lung Association’s chief medical officer.

Similar reports have emerged from China and the United Kingdom. One U.K. report put the figure at 66%. A very small study in Wuhan, the Chinese city where the disease first emerged, said 86% died.

The reason is not clear. It may have to do with what kind of shape the patients were in before they were infected. Or it could be related to how sick they had become by the time they were put on the machines, some experts said.

But some health professionals have wondered whether ventilators might actually make matters worse in certain patients, perhaps by igniting or worsening a harmful immune system reaction.

But everyone has been clamoring for ventilators. Maybe other things the experts know for certain are not certain.

Of course, Dr. Anthony Fauci has provided his daily ratcheting down of the projection numbers, saying, the final toll currently “looks more like 60,000 than the 100,000 to 200,000” that U.S. officials previously estimated.

And Knut Wittkowski, former head of the Department of Biostatistics, Epidemiology, and Research Design at the Rockefeller University in New York City, says the coronavirus could be “exterminated” if most people were permitted to lead normal lives and only the vulnerable are sheltered:

[W]hat people are trying to do is flatten the curve. I don’t really know why. But, what happens is if you flatten the curve, you also prolong, to widen it, and it takes more time. And I don’t see a good reason for a respiratory disease to stay in the population longer than necessary.

With all respiratory diseases, the only thing that stops the disease is herd immunity. About 80% of the people need to have had contact with the virus, and the majority of them won’t even have recognized that they were infected, or they had very, very mild symptoms, especially if they are children. So, it’s very important to keep the schools open and kids mingling to spread the virus to get herd immunity as fast as possible, and then the elderly people, who should be separated, and the nursing homes should be closed during that time, can come back and meet their children and grandchildren after about 4 weeks when the virus has been exterminated.

39 comments on “Pessimists always get to say ‘I told you so’

  1. noodle35 says:

    I’m glad you are keeping an eye on things for us. Good job!

  2. Anonymous says:

    “I’m old enough to remember when this was still a hoax”
    -4 month old toddler

    “COVID-19, which is caused by the coronavirus that is spreading across the globe, is now the deadliest disease in the U.S., with more deaths per day than cancer or heart disease.

    A new graph published Tuesday by Dr. Maria Danilychev showed COVID-19 is the cause of 1,970 deaths in the U.S. per day, according to MSN.

    It was only last week when Danilychev published a report showing COVID-19 as the third leading cause of death, taking the place of accidents, with fatalities averaging at around 748 per day.”

  3. Athos says:

    Sissylack just closed my golf course.

    Now this thing is personal (and ugly)

  4. Bill says:

    One thing is for sure. We don’t know a lot of things at the present time and many things about the virus and treatments are unsure. One thing for sure is there is a lot of misinformation. Another sure thing is the political posturing and finger pointing. It may be interesting down the road to see exactly what relationship one’s immune system has to do with the susceptibility to this virus.

    We also need to see just how deaths are being reported. For instance, a person with a bad heart contracts the virus and then dies of a heart attack. Is the reported cause of death, heart attach or corona virus?

    God protect us from the Henny-Pennys of the world. God bless the problem solvers, which,for he moment, I include President Trump.

  5. Yes, counted as coronavirus.

  6. Bill says:

    A bit misleading IMO. That is certainly one way to manipulate statistics to determine outcome.

  7. Anonymous says:

    So, up until 2 days ago, the area hardest hit by the virus (New York) wasn’t even counting people that died at home of the virus and people want to talk about OVERCOUNTS? Geez. So many more people have died due to the corona and are not being counted but naturally because its a hoax, or just a common cold, or no worse than the flu, or a conspiracy by the left to…get more money into the hands of large corporations maybe? I don’t know about you guys

    “New York City officials will begin to count suspected COVID-19 deaths in addition to cases confirmed by a laboratory, following a WNYC/Gothamist report revealing a staggering increase in the number of people dying at home but not included in the official tally because they hadn’t been tested for the novel coronavirus.

    In a statement, Stephanie Buhle, a spokeswoman for the New York City’s Health Department, confirmed the change in protocol.”

  8. Rincon says:

    I agree that the trade-off between letting the virus run its course and shutting down a large portion of our society and economy is not an easy one to decide. Politically, it’s a no brainer. Nations around the world have shut things down and any leader that doesn’t looks soft on disease just as politicians who didn’t advocate building lots of jails and putting lots of criminals into them looked soft on crime a couple of decades ago. The answers for both seem(ed) obvious, but the obvious answer isn’t always the best one.

    The best answer has already been bypassed. Had we and other nations emulated Taiwan, Korea, Australia, etc., we could have had a reasonable chance of slowing the progression dramatically for little cost. Unfortunately, that’s behind us now. Although I believe the Trump Administration clearly dropped the ball in the beginning, so did many other world leaders, It’s now spilt milk.

    There is still a reasonable compromise, but there are plenty of Americans that aren’t patriotic enough to follow the procedures needed. Two grocery stores in my area serve as an example. The one (Jewel) is like the wild west. Not even so much as a sign posted, yet in another (Woodman’s), simple (and cheap) clear plastic partitions hang from the ceiling between cashier and customer. One employee has the job of keeping customers at least 6 feet apart in a long line leading to the set of checkouts. Some shelving units have been temporarily removed to allow the necessary space. Employees wear masks. Woodman’s took care of business. Jewell was happy to do the minimum needed to stay legal.

    Our Subway has lines taped on the floor and a sign directing a minimum 6 foot separation between people in the store. Everything was safe and orderly. In contrast, Chipotle had their employees take online orders and then bring them outside. Theoretically good, but in practice, Chipotle was running behind and there was a cluster of perhaps 20 people milling around outside their door. Many were only inches apart. Chipotle emloyees had to push through groups in order to take peoples’ payments and give them their food. Buying food at Subway is obviously safer, yet no one prevents Chipotle from using a clearly inferior protocol.

    My point is that we can do a lot of things safely, but because people are (sometimes unbelievably) careless, our politicians decided that shutting things down is the only way – and unfortunately, they’re probably right. I know several people that refuse to take any precautions at all because they believe their own opinion outweighs that of our leadership. Most of them are young by some strange coincidence.

    All it takes to keep the virus raging is for a relatively small percentage of our population to ignore proper procedures. That cripples the efforts of the ones who conscientiously follow safe behavior. A team cannot function if players and do their own thing and ignore the coach, even if the coach isn’t a particularly good one. As a team, I give the people in my area a C minus. The idiots who partied in Florida during Spring Break, and then fanned out across the country carrying the recently acquired virus with them? Take a guess. Of course, I should probably blame Trump toady, Florida Governor DeSantis, who spurred them on more than the kids. The problem with each Governor doing his own thing is the same as the football analogy. If we do a lockdown, then everybody’s got to do it at the same time. If not, then don’t bother. That’s not politics, it’s science.

    If we could trust people to follow safe guidelines, then keeping movie theaters open for example, wouldn’t be terribly hazardous. People just need to sit in every other or every third seat, with a restriction on total ticket sales to keep the total numbers manageable. That wouldn’t work though, because we all know that lots of people would ignore all guidelines.

    In conclusion, I agree with Thomas. We probably shouldn’t have bothered if this is the best we can do. Epidemics don’t respond well to half hearted measures Doing it China’s way might have paid off, but we, the people would never have it.

  9. Bill says:

    Rincon, even though what you say may be true, locking everything down by Federal Fiat is a bit difficult if not unconstitutional. We do have a democratic federal rorm of government that does have a strong central government but is not omnipotent. Thank goodness.

    I’m not responding to Anonymous as I want the pessimist to have the last word.

  10. Athos says:

    Rinny, I always thought you were a Vegas person. Naming your grocery stores belies that, doesn’t it? Grocery stores, hospitals, gas stations, drive thru eateries, news delivery systems (print, radio and tv) utility providers, who else am I missing as to being open (and thereby still drawing a paycheck)?

    And the young (from the statistics I’ve seen) are in a low risk group for contracting this disease. Doctors that I’ve seen on TV are self proscribing the Hydro/Zpac combo as a preventative drug. Why not the rest of us?

    My point being why is a grocery store not considered too dangerous to congregate and a church is deemed off limits? Why is a liquor store closed but not the pot store? Why is my orthodontist office closed, but not the PP abortion clinic?

    You would have to be living in a make believe world to think Doctors’ decisions are not based on politics. If my job told me to come back to work, Gov. Sissylack (who still draws my government taxed paycheck) can kiss my cherry red ***

    I’m REALLY surprised that states with a euthanasia policy aren’t open balls to the wall. (Hello Oregon, Washington and Montana!)

  11. Bill says:

    Athos, the anomalies are hard to understand. I agree with you: is my gin less important than someones joint? Why close one and not the other? Also, why close small operators like my barber who runs a one man shop and why close ladies beauty and manicure/pedicure shops that have individual partitioned stations? Many ladies that I know consider them to be necessities.

  12. Rincon says:

    Right you are, Bill. When I said we, the people would never have it, I’m one of those people. That’s why I agree with Thomas that the cure could turn out to be worse than the disease. Time will tell.

    The shame of it though, is that we could control it pretty well without huge sacrifice if everyone in this country was a team player. For better or worse, this country is all about the individual, and as a people, we believe less in societal responsibility by individuals than most advanced nations. We’ll see how we do in the long run compared to those other nations.

    Again, Athos, we think differently. Epidemiology is all about math. Ideally, we would keep all humans separated for only two or three weeks, and that would actually work perfectly – end of disease. The problem is that is is impossible to quarantine everyone on the planet from everyone else for that long. Since we have a leaky net, we have to rely on transmitting smaller and smaller numbers of cases over time. The question is, how leaky can we afford our net to be? Why a grocery store is needed is pretty obvious, Your orthodontist less so, but most orthodontists are grateful because working all day with your face 6 inches from the mouth of anyone who walks in is a formula for picking up COVID19 really fast. I certainly wouldn’t want to do it! Unlike orthodontia, delay can be a major problem for abortion, but in addition, with an abortion, the doctor isn’t 6 inches in front of the patient’s face, so the risk of transmission is dramatically smaller.

    Also, churches could be open if we could only trust people to wear masks, stay 6 feet apart, etc., but we can’t. At the very least, there will be some who firmly believe that God will protect them, and they will refuse to take reasonable precautions.

    Put yourself in the position of Emmanuel Macron. He declared a lockdown in France. The next day, the idiots of France gathered in throngs in the parks because they all had the day off and the weather was gorgeous. They just didn’t get it. Kind of like the idiots that flocked to the supermarkets to hoard the food here. They joined massive crowds in order to minimize their risk. Morons!. Macron’s only option was to close the parks, so he did. Bottom line: since people cannot be trusted to use good judgement, rules must be set and all rules, especially those hastily formulated, are at least somewhat arbitrary.

    As for the hydro/Zpac combo, how many doses of these drugs do you think are available? We would be lucky to be able to treat 5% of the patients, especially since most of the supply is being hoarded by the same kinds of folks that bought up all of the toilet paper. You can bet production is being ramped up, which allows time for a preliminary study. BTW, this could be one benefit of slowing the epidemic down if this stuff really works. It buys time to make the massive amounts required.

  13. Athos says:

    Macron did pay a visit to the hydro/Zpac virologist in Marseille, today. Here’s the bottom line for me. We’ve now hid beneath our collective beds for 4 weeks. Our Economy is wrecked. The pols didn’t “waste a crisis” and we still have ~47 deaths per million. Or about an average death toll for 2 days in the USA (2018 numbers)

    Let’s get back to work and shelter the elderly and the sick. If you’re in the danger zone, stay home. Otherwise go to work and take your Hydro/Zpac. How many pills do we need? 16million laid off x2pills/day x 2weeks is roughly half a billion pills.

    And for God’s sake get the FDA to cut the red tape and get us those antibody tests as well as the “do I have the virus” test. To me, that is the proper use of your vitriol – the labyrinth of government red tape and inefficiency.

    How long would it take to produce that many pills if we didn’t have that many layers of government screwups? And they were deeply entrenched LOOONG before Trump got there!

  14. Rincon says:

    I agree with you in that I think it’s possible that the treatment is becoming worse than the disease, but until we have a firm death rate, we’re flying blind. I read somewhere that less than 5% of our population has picked up the virus. Might be true. I don’t know. The other problem is that the deaths follow the onset of infection by a week or two. Many who have contracted the disease haven’t died yet, but will. That being said, I’m suspicious that much of the uproar is the fear of the unknown. We lose 35,000 people every year to auto accidents, 50,000 or so to opioids, and 20-70,000 to the flu, but we don’t bat an eye. We may indeed still lose more than 100,000 to Corona, but it’s a relatively small figure compared to say, 10 years worth of the ongoing deaths I mentioned.

    The classic overreaction by the way, was to 9/11. A few thousand dead, and we gave away many of our freedoms, and have suffered the cost in life and treasure, of two very expensive wars. I’m assuming that, without 9/11, invading Iraq would have been far less likely, because our country would have been in a much different mood, and less likely to allow that foreign adventure w/o 9/11. I wonder how hard it is to dig up comments prior to the War in Iraq that were posted in this space. Might be interesting.

    As for getting the tests ready, haste really does make waste. And some things can’t be rushed.
    Imagine people in a famine criticizing their farmers because their crops aren’t growing fast enough. Antibody tests require antigen, and antigen requires the virus so far as I know. We can get the virus to grow only so fast in the lab/factory.
    Haste may have also contributed to the failure of our first Corona tests to be accurate enough to be useful, so if we rush it too much, we risk another debacle.

    Pills are similar. How do you think they’re made, anyway? One can’t just change an assembly line from producing aspirin, and make it start making antibiotics. BTW, they can’t even do that with toilet paper. The machines that make other kinds of paper simply cannot be converted into making TP.

  15. Anonymous says:

    How many people die in car accidents is relevant to how many people have died in 3 months since this virus has been in the US or irrelevant.

    People choose to drive. One third of the population in this country drives everyday, and over the course of three months billions of miles are travelled. Not everyone is allowed to drive. You must get a license to drive. Driving requires that you have proven skills. You are required to have insurance to drive. people have been driving for more than a century. Driving is a totally regulated endeavor with well understood risks.

    There is no rational comparison to driving deaths and deaths from this virus. Likewise there’s no rational comparison to the deaths suffered by people from the flu other than that both this current virus and the flu virus are viruses. Comparing the two by number of deaths would be akin to suggesting that Ebola is not to be feared because so many people die from the flu, or from shark attacks.

    The danger from this current virus is that we don’t know much about it. We haven’t developed any immunity to it. We have no vaccine for it, and we don’t even know how contagious it is or how it spreads.

    Any comparison between this virus and anything else that does not have the same characteristics demeans the dangers this virus poses.

  16. Athos says:

    Annie, I agree, we don’t know how contagious this disease is. Isn’t measles contagious to a factor of 15? And thanks to our Chinese friends shutting us out of any meaningful data, we don’t really know how infectious is this disease. We can’t even tell how lethal it is, can we? (something about not knowing the true denominator).

    However, it doesn’t take a nobel winning economist to figure out what happens to our nations GDP if we stay “sheltered in place” for much longer, does it?

    And Rin, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Every time I fly, and have to take off my shoes and get body scanned, I see red. You could eliminate the Homeland Security Department and you’d find no argument from me. What was Reagan’s quote?
    “The closest thing to eternal life on earth is a Government Program”

    And I’m already hearing the tinfoil hat guys saying the government will slip a GPS tracking device into our new coronavirus vaccines. And before you poo-poo that remember there were people that believed Russian hookers peed on the Donald! (I’ve really been jonesing to use that joke ever since I saw it!)

  17. Rincon says:

    I have to say that people do not always choose to drive, or rather, ride, in a car. Children are given no choice by their parents. Trying to live without ever sitting in an automobile may be possible, but is obviously not realistic for most people. Of course, you assume that we have no choice about exposure to Coronavirus. We do! Just stay in your home 24/7, order all necessary supplies and disinfect everything coming in through the door. Your chance of being killed by Corona would be less than a nondriver runs as a pedestrian, who can be killed because someone ELSE decided to drive.

    If I could save 50,000 lives at half a million dollars each or the same number at 10 million each, which should I choose? Many of the lives lost on the roads can be saved with the same measures employed by race car drivers at a reasonable cost: 1) Roll cage, 2) X-style safety belt, and 3) Crash helmet, but we don’t bother. In light of that, I’m not sure why we should go to the nth degree to save perhaps a similar number of people at perhaps a far greater cost.

    To me, a life saved is a life saved, although I believe it is worth spending more to save a young, healthy life than an old, decrepit one. The potential cause of death is irrelevant except for whatever suffering is entailed.

    Hey Athos, I knew we could find SOMETHING to agree on! Not sure why it matters though, whether or not Trump was peed on. We already know he sleeps with women similar to hookers. They were just willing to be paid after the fact rather than before. Besides, I have just as much respect for a woman who has sex to pay the bills as I do one who does the same just to have a good time.

  18. Anonymous says:

    We know how to stop automobile deaths. How do stop people from dying from a virus we’ve not seen before?

    What if all we think we know about the virus today is wrong? What if instead of the virus being transmittable from “6 feet away” as we’ve previously been told, that the virus may actually be transmitted from more than “13 feet away” as a recent study demonstrated? What if the virus, stepped on, can be carried on the shoes? As studies are demonstrating today?

    What if, contrary to what we’ve been told, and what prior experience has taught, that the virus can actually be “re-activated” in a patient previously deemed to be “recovered” by testing that showed the patient was virus free, as we learned today?

    Maybe taking a little more time, and being a little more cautious with a “novel” virus, that we really know very little about, as opposed to auto accidents, is not just a good idea for people, but in the long run, for any economy that we hope to have?

  19. Rincon says:

    Your first sentence said it all. We know how to prevent many of the deaths from vehicular accidents, but we don’t bother. We don’t really know how to prevent deaths from COVID 19, but by God, we’re going to risk the economy trying, even though our efforts may be for naught. Go figure.

  20. Steve says:

    Awww, I was hoping the pessimist got the last word.

  21. Where have I heard this before?

    Trump could wait two weeks or two months, but no matter what he does, Democrats are going to claim he took the wrong course of action. Because deaths are inevitable, they’ll have their fodder to scream “I told you so” while ignoring all the context of the situation. The truth of the matter is that we can not stay locked down indefinitely, though Pelosi and her allies will pretend as if that was a viable option.

  22. Anonymous says:

    Poor old Donnie always being picked on by those mean old democrats.

    Heck I bet even if he had listened to his department of health services director back in January when he told him multiple times that he better take action or the country was facing many many deaths, the democrats would have still been as mean to him as republicans were to president Obama during the H1N1 outbreak or the Ebola outbreak.

    I think he shouldn’t take it anymore and just quit and take his administration home with him.

    That’ll show them mean old democrats who are totally and completely out of power in this country whose to blame.

  23. Rincon says:

    Once Trump underreacted, there was little chance of controlling the outbreak, so at this time, it may be just as well to take it on the chin and lick our wounds. The superior response is no longer available to us.

    As for criticism by Democrats, he deserves it for doing the worst possible thing: Underreacting and then overreacting when the horse was out of the barn.

  24. Steve says:

    How could anyone underact to something no one knew was everywhere?

    We all now know this virus is contagious even when the person carrying
    it shows zero symptoms (asymptomatic)
    There are very credible reports of people who experienced symptoms of COVID-19 as far back as November in China now. And many as far back as December, here.
    As more testing is being done, all the doomsday mortality models are falling faster and faster.
    Per capita data shows the USA nowhere near the top of the doomsday mountain.

    So, if antibody testing proves this out, which it seems more and more likely with each passing day; how could anyone have acted at all?

  25. Steve says:

    New York Times Jan 8, 2020.

    “China Identifies New Virus Causing Pneumonialike Illness”

    “The new coronavirus doesn’t appear to be readily spread by humans, but researchers caution that more study is needed.”

    But, by all means, blame must be laid at one doorstep.

    High horses have sharp drops.

  26. Anonymous says:

    “WASHINGTON — “Any way you cut it, this is going to be bad,” a senior medical adviser at the Department of Veterans Affairs, Dr. Carter Mecher, wrote on the night of Jan. 28, in an email to a group of public health experts scattered around the government and universities. “The projected size of the outbreak already seems hard to believe.”

    A week after the first coronavirus case had been identified in the United States, and six long weeks before President Trump finally took aggressive action to confront the danger the nation was facing — a pandemic that is now forecast to take tens of thousands of American lives — Dr. Mecher was urging the upper ranks of the nation’s public health bureaucracy to wake up and prepare for the possibility of far more drastic action.

    “You guys made fun of me screaming to close the schools,” he wrote to the group, which called itself “Red Dawn,” an inside joke based on the 1984 movie about a band of Americans trying to save the country after a foreign invasion. “Now I’m screaming close the colleges and universities”

  27. Anonymous says:

    “At a press conference on Tuesday — where reporters practiced social distancing and the White House coronavirus task force did not — President Trump was asked if worst-case estimates for coronavirus deaths of over 1 million prompted his recent “shift in tone.” The president did not agree with the analysis:

    “I’ve always known this is a real — this is a pandemic. I’ve felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic. All you had to do was look at other countries … No I’ve always viewed it as very serious. There was no difference yesterday from days before.”
    Like Trump’s past revisions of his personal record, the claim doesn’t stand up to the slightest nudge of scrutiny. Almost two months ago, on January 22, the president told CNBC that the virus was “totally under control.” When asked if there were “worries about a pandemic at this point,” he responded, “No, not at all.” A little over a month later, on February 28, he called the coronavirus the Democrats’ “new hoax,” comparing it to the Russia investigation. “It’s going to disappear,” he added. “One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.” On March 9 — by which point there were already over 500 confirmed cases in the U.S. — he dismissed the pandemic with the common conservative comparison to the flu. And on Sunday — days after declaring a national emergency and hours before a major shutdown of New York City — he said that “it’s something that we have tremendous control over.” (Rhetoric is just a sliver of the problem: As the president denied the importance of COVID-19, his administration lost vital weeks to mitigate the crisis and implement proper testing.)”

    “Poor old Donnie, everyone just keeps picking on him by quoting him directly.”

  28. Athos says:

    The best thing Trump could do is open up the country for business, and take the hit. People may still die, and the msm will pillar him (there’s something new) and 2nd guess him 24/7 but when we start to come out of this funk, and the numbers are closer to 60,000 than 2 million deaths, the people that vote will see he truly made the “toughest decision in his life” which is why we elected him.

    My God, the articles (and opinions of those on this blog) are falsely vilifying him over not preventing the virus back last year, you know, when EVERYBODY AND HIS BROTHER KNEW HOW DANGEROUS THIS WUHAN VIRUS WAS! Huh? All those high level big shots calling for immediate travel bans and calling off first the New Years celebration, AND then the Chinese New Year Celebrations in Las Vegas, and New York and San Fran; and all those important policy wonks calling for the cancelation of Madre Gras in New Orleans, and stopping our athletes from the NFL playoffs in Dec. and January and of course, who could ever forget the courageous Roger Goodell calling off the Super Bowl for the safety of players and fans alike?! (Cause even Roger Goodell knew how bad this virus was!!, right?)

    So I say, go ahead and open us back up and lets see how great those “models” were because no matter what Trump does, the chorus of boo birds will be deafening. Impeachment, the Mueller Report, the Emoluments Clause, the 25th Amendment, The Steele Dossier, grab em by the pussygate, shame the electors not to honor their States’ votes, riot on inauguration day, the TDS infected populace will not stop at “foaming at the mouth” reporting.

    And for a nation (and media) that slept thru the killing of a US Ambassador in Benghazi, I find you all despicable, and reprehensible.

    And once again, Rin, it is more that apparent that your wife does not read your posts. (Paid vs good time? as opposed to performing conjugal duties?) and “We already know he sleeps with women similar to hookers.” Who’s we? You got a pocket full of fleas or something? Or is this more reliance on those “oh, it’s gotta be true!” reporters you listen to?

  29. Athos says:

    Just re watched Mel Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ”. Wow. The level of hate shown to Jesus after he was arrested and leading up to the actual crucifixion was demonic. The venom poured out by the church leaders and Roman solders was inexplicable. Reasonable men were reduced to rabid dogs.

    Reminded me of TDS. It was irrational, blind hatred. I’m not trying to put you fellas down. I’m just trying to warn you. As much as I hated Prez Zero, I don’t believe I was that rabid. Or maybe I was and I just have an inability to see myself as I really am.

    Or maybe you’re so used to wimpy Mittons Romney or silent Jorge Bush that a fighter throws you for a loop.

    And boy oh boy, the Donald is a fighter, isn’t he?

  30. Rincon says:

    Comparing the deaths of four Americans who were engaged in a covert operation, where large numbers of security personnel negate the covert part, to the deaths of tens of thousands in an epidemic when clear warning was given by experts is a stretch to say the least, but if I recall, you were one of those insisting that Hillary be criminally charged! And now you say WE are filled with hate, when all we have done is to criticize an abysmal response. Keep drinking that Kool-Aid.

    Not sure what your point was about Roger Goodell, but it is true that he saw the writing on the wall over a month before Trump did, and it wasn’t even his job. Goodell knew his organization would take a huge financial hit by cancelling games, but did it anyway, presumably because the evidence was overwhelming. Too bad we hadn’t made him our President.

    As for Trump’s other scandals, you missed over a dozen, including more than ten thousand documented instances of his lying to the American people. But it’s all OK, because he’s on your team, and a good fan never sees the fouls committed by his own team.

  31. Anonymous says:

    I’m REALLY hoping that one of the regular posters here can spend some time and translate this for me.

    Once this happens, I’m also hoping (because we all have so much more time on our hands these days to pursue stuff like this) that they’d be so kind as to try and justify what he is saying or, as an alternative, condemn this dumb POS for suggesting such a thing precisely as they did do while a democratic president was in office. (And I sure would LOVE for athos, or Bill, or Barbara, or Thomas, or one of the other regular posters from the right to offer their take(s) as well.

    “I like to allow governors to make decisions without overruling them, because from a constitutional standpoint, that’s the way it should be done. If I disagreed, I would overrule a governor, and I have that right to do it. But I’d rather have them — you can call it ‘federalist,’ you can call it ‘the Constitution,’ but I call it ‘the Constitution.’ I would rather have them make their decisions,” Trump told reporters at a White House briefing Friday.”

    Thanking you in advance.

  32. Athos says:

    “Comparing the deaths of four Americans who were engaged in a covert operation, where large numbers of security personnel negate the covert part,” Huh? Where in the Sam hill did you that little nugget of Clancy fiction? Silly me, I always thought the official story was a spontaneous reaction/protest of an obscure internet Mohammed movie that touched off the first death of a US Ambassador in over 30 years. Seriously, Rin, is that a quote from the Onion?

    You’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t live in Southern Nevada, your wife doesn’t read your posts, you don’t really follow sports, have severe TDS and have MSM sense of short term memory (of course that’s colored by your advance case of TDS, isn’t it?) Funny how you have to state Trump’s “more than 10,000 documented instances of his lying to the American people” when I can readily give Zero’s “If you like your plan, you can keep your plan” lie to foist communism on the American people. But then again, I believed him (0) when his stated goal was fundamentally transforming the United States of America. And that’s your guy, huh?

  33. Athos says:

    Hey, Annie. What don’t you understand? You missing that bozo with a pen and phone? The Lightbringer? I guess the one “we’ve all been waiting for” has come and gone, hasn’t he? Too bad.

    There are a multitude of civil liberties being trampled on during this pandemic. Just like all the bad laws we got from the housing bubble, and all the loss of liberty measures enacted after 9/11; it would be advisable to sort out what powers the government and especially the Executive branch (Federal, State and local) can constitutionally excercise. You can go all the way back to the Whiskey Rebellion right on up to Louisville, Kentucky mayor harassing church folk on an Easter Sunday parking lot service. We have God given rights. (inalienable) that the government can only dampen with force.

    More will be revealed, won’t it?

  34. Rincon says:

    “Within months of the start of the Libyan revolution in February 2011, the CIA began building a covert presence in Benghazi.[29] During the war, elite counterterrorist operators from U.S. Delta Force were deployed to Libya as analysts, instructing the rebels on specifics about weapons and tactics.[30]:16 Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens was named the first liaison with the Libyan opposition in March 2011.”

    Additionally, “Despite persistent accusations against President Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Susan Rice, ten investigations — six by Republican-controlled congressional committees — did not find that they or any other high-ranking Obama administration officials had acted improperly.”

    Persistent acusations: Hallmark of right wingnuts, just like the Obama birth certificate. They are the boys that cried wolff.

    I agreed that Obama’s one lie was despicable. You, on the other hand, refuse to do the same with Mr. Trump’s veritable menagerie of lies and deceit. Why not?

  35. Athos says:

    There’s a reason that the winners write their version of history. So you used Wikipedia for your source, did you? You know the problem with Wikipedia is that anybody can put whatever they want into it, right? And they got their dates wrong, didn’t they? And there are those of us who are alive and paying attention back then remember Susan Rice going to five different Sunday morning shows on September 16, 2012 spewing the spontaneous attack from us Internet video Insulting Mohamed.
    I also remember The Obama regime going to great lengths to put the maker of this video in jail long after it was apparent that this was a coordinated planned attack.
    You’re equally correct in stating that they were never any charges brought forth. Funny how that works when there’s Clintons involved, isn’t it?
    As to apologizing for Trump’s lies? As soon as I hear him lie you can bet I’ll be the first to point it out.
    How’s that work for you?

  36. Rincon says:

    Let’s see, 6 Republican controlled Congressional committees couldn’t find anything wrong, and you STILL insist that you know better. Hubris, your name is Athos.

    I also note that you have no source of your own, so tell me, why should I believe you instead of Wikipedia? I believe Wikipedia because it agrees with my memory and believe it or not, none of you has ever submitted evidence that it contains false information. Why don’t you give it a try today? Let me know what you find.

    How about the report of the Republican controlled House Select Committee on the Events in Benghazi? Once again, Wikipedia is right, and you are wrong.

    Click to access Part%20III_Redacted.pdf

  37. Anonymous says:

    Come on Rincon after what he said you must realize he doesn’t care if he is wrong.

    I mean, pretending to be unaware that Trump lies? If that doesn’t tell you all you need to know about who he is then nothing will.

  38. Athos says:

    So, you put a multiple page report from Wiki on Tom’s blog and bingo, that’s that? I may be bored but no so to try and wade thru this crap you posted.(How many pages was that, anyway, Rinny?)

    And I did notice that you didn’t include Trey Gowdy’s congressional report that was less than favorable towards Hill and Barry.

    I will tell you what I remember and that was Obama came to Las Vegas the day after Chris Stevens was killed to attend a fund raiser and go golfing. And for well over a week pushed the “spontaneous riot over an internet movie” as the reason for the attack, even though the WhiteHouse knew it was a muslim terrorist attack. (On 9/11 of all things, go figure, huh?) And a whole bunch of Lightbringer sycophants bought it (didn’t you?)!

    So don’t you and annie (little p) go all high and mighty on me. At least Trump didn’t kill our ambassador. And he’s not some globalist stooge.

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