Is Sisolak practicing medicine without a license and violating state law?

Gov. Steve Sisolak issued the above press release announcing his order that doctors may not prescribe “two certain drugs” — chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine — to treat coronavirus patients.

In 2015 the state Legislature passed without a single nay vote a Right to Try law that states, “An officer, employee or agent of this State shall not prevent or attempt to prevent a patient from accessing an investigational drug, biological product or device that is authorized to be provided or made available to a patient pursuant to this section.”

Violation of the law is a misdemeanor.

Sisolak’s stated reason for issuing the order was to prevent hoarding, but that is being done by doctors wanting to protect themselves and their families.

Two doctors wrote in The Wall Street Journal recently that the drug in question in combination with another drug has been successful in curing 100 percent of COVID-19 patients in a small number of cases.

Is Sisoalk not only practicing medicine without a license, but also violating state law?

p.s.: The governor’s press release failed to include the verbiage in the actual regulation, which says, “The provisions of this emergency regulation do not apply to a chart order for an inpatient in an institutional setting …”

Pay no heed to the possibility that use of the aforementioned drugs just might keep a coronavirus patient from having to be admitted to a hospital. Isn’t one of the big fears the potential for hospitals to be overwhelmed?


139 comments on “Is Sisolak practicing medicine without a license and violating state law?

  1. Steve says:

  2. Yes, but the exception is only for those already hospitalized.

  3. On the radio in Philadelphia, Trump adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci talked with Townhall columnist Chris Stigall about the hope in the hydroxychloroquine drug.

    “If you’re a doctor listening to me right now and a patient with coronavirus feels like they want to try that,” Stigall asked, “and you’re their doctor, you’re not Anthony Fauci the guy running the coronavirus task force, would you say ‘alright, we’ll give it a whirl’?”

    “Yeah, of course, particularly if people have no other option,” Fauci said. “These drugs are approved drugs for other reasons. They’re anti-malaria drugs, and they’re drugs against certain autoimmune diseases like lupus. Physicians throughout the country can prescribe that in an off-label way. Which means they can write it for something it was not approved for.”

  4. Anonymous says:

    Why would anyone need to take a drug when this is a hoax?

  5. Steve says:

    Thing is, the federal government has no actual control over state authority in matters like these. It can advise and support but the final word is always up to state governors.

    This is why “essential business” is different in each state.

    And, the only place I would want to have an untested drug administered would be at a hospital and even then, only as compassionate care. It should be the decision of a hospitalized patient and their doctor. It should not be available for public prescription until it is known what amount and duration are effective and not deadly.

  6. Athos says:

    Any questions about Sis-a-laugh being a joke? Is Nevada’s chief medical officer not licensed to practice medicine in U.S (Ihsan Azzam)?

    And who’s the other clown that’s spearheading Nevada’s Pandemic? That drunk bum Murren that just got the boot (12 years too late) from MGM?

    You can’t make up this level of stupidity. I know we serve alcohol 24/7 but there is no way we have a plurality of voters that could be that stinking drunk!

    How about we start printing the ballets in ENGLISH ONLY, and require valid proof of Nevada citizenship for our elections? What’s the objection to that, again?

    Or are our Democrat party voters satisfied with this level of buffoonery? And who cares if people gotta die?

  7. Anonymous says:


    I thought that was just a left wing hoax?

    Rightees got jokes man

  8. Anonymous says:

    Thank God we have a republican president guiding this country at this moment of crisis. If we didn’t just imagine all that toxic waste NOT being dumped even as we speak into our water and air.

    Seriously thought this can anyone explain this to me?

    “The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued a sweeping suspension of its enforcement of environmental laws Thursday, telling companies they would not need to meet environmental standards during the coronavirus outbreak.

    The temporary policy, for which EPA has set no end date, would allow any number of industries to skirt environmental laws, with the agency saying it will not “seek penalties for noncompliance with routine monitoring and reporting obligations.”

    Cynthia Giles, who headed EPA’s Office of Enforcement during the Obama administration, called it a moratorium on enforcing the nation’s environmental laws and an abdication of EPA’s duty. ”

    Trump is pure evil the son of a jackal.

  9. Athos says:

    “ Trump is pure evil the son of a jackal.”

    Thank God Anne Moss has the antidote!

    Biden 2020

    Right, Comrade?

  10. Anonymous says:

    And here’s athos. Defender of liberty and small government.

    Defending trump.

    We’re all socialists now eh boy? Least ways till trump is thrown into a deep dark hole in some black site and Biden takes over.

    Righties man…

  11. Athos says:

    Have you been following the Michigan gov that bans chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, and threatens Dr with their license if they were to prescribe these drugs? What up, Dems? People in the medical front lines (Dr in NYC) are taking this drug as a prophylactic. But it’s not good enough for the good people of Nevada or Michigan according to their D-Govs?

  12. Anonymous says:

    Have you been following Trump saying that in exchange for those hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars that of course the US government will expect to receive equity stakes in the companies?


  13. Athos says:

    Annie, I’m not a “comrade”. And no, I’m not following some fake news story about Trump. Maybe you’re confusing this with President Zero (remember the “light bringer”?) bailing out the Auto workers Union 10 years ago.

    I’m trying to figure out why our illustrious pos gov Sisolak won’t let us have the drugs to mitigate this “pandemic”. A slightly more important subject, nest-ce pas?

    Care to shed a little light on my (and every other Nevadan’s) dilemma?

    Or didn’t your masters clue you in?

  14. Anonymous says:

    “he supported the federal government moving to take an equity stake in some companies, Trump said: “I do. I really do.”

    Trump, speaking at a news conference at the White House, added: “We will be helping the airline industry. We will be helping the cruise ship industry. We probably will be helping the hotel industry.”


  15. […] Is Sisolak practicing medicine without a license and violating state law? Gov. Steve Sisolak issued the above press release announcing his order that doctors may not prescribe “two certain drugs” — chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine — to treat coronavirus patients. […]

  16. Athos says:

    You’re good at misdirection, aren’t you? I suppose when your master is Darkness and Tyranny, you have to live in the shadows, huh, annie?

    But the topic here is the life saving drugs that Sissy Gov has banned. We can get plenty of your drivel from all the dark money ads running on Facebook.

    But that ain’t here, is it??

    Life saving drug ban, comrade. Any thoughts defending the dark side?

  17. Anonymous says:

    If all this is a hoax, why are we talking about drugs that were banned?

    But as a follow up:

    If, as Trump said, he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else, which did he call it a hoax?

    And when it said it was “one guy coming on a plane from China, and that “we had it under tremendous control” was he lying?

    And finally, how do you justify support for a socialist that tells the company nary he wants a piece of all those beautiful American businesses unless you are a comrade?

  18. Anonymous says:

    Should be “how do you justify support for a socialist that tells the country…”

  19. Doc writing in WSJ today: The authors of the French study last week published the results of an additional 80 hospitalized patients receiving a combination of HC and AZ. By day eight of treatment, 93% showed a negative nasopharyngeal swab for the virus. “This allowed patients to rapidly be discharged from highly contagious wards with a mean length of stay of five days,” the authors write. “Other teams should urgently evaluate this cost-effective therapeutic strategy, to both avoid the spread of the disease and treat patients as soon as possible before severe respiratory irreversible complications take hold.” I agree.

  20. Steve says:

    Opposing opinion.
    Derek Lowe 29 March, 2020

    “Dr. Didier Raoult of Marseilles and his co-workers have published another preprint on clinical results with the chloroquine/azithromycin combination that their earlier work has made famous. And I still don’t know what to think of it.

    This is going to be a long post on the whole issue, so if you don’t feel like reading the whole thing, here’s the summary: these new results are still not from randomized patients and still do not have any sort of control group for comparison. The sample is larger, but it’s still not possible to judge what’s going on. And on further reading, I have doubts about Dr. Raoult’s general approach to science and doubts about Dr. Raoult himself. Despite this second publication, I am actually less hopeful than I was before. Now the details.”

  21. Steve says:

    Nevertheless, today the FDA approved those drugs for use in hospitals from the national stockpile only. This was done to make sure enough remain in stock to take care of current uses, those people need them.
    Now hospitals will have a dedicated supply and must report all instances and effects of their to the CDC.

    So, this issue is resolved and results will be forthcoming.

    Anyone care to take a guess what reporting will be done once those results start to become available?

  22. Steve says:

    Their use to the CDC…….

    dyslexia sucks.

  23. Athos says:

    Any news from our dear Leader, Sisolak?

  24. Anonymous says:

    A small clinical study done recently on the efficacy of the two drug promoted by Dr. Dotard.

  25. Rincon says:

    Please don’t call him Dotard. That’s an insult to retarded people. Orange turd has a nice ring or maybe angry Cheeto.
    It was a good bet that the combo was worthless simply because Trump said it was so great.

  26. Athos says:

    Whoa. Rinny and little p hate the Donald sooooo much there’re rooting against an effective cure for this crippling disease.
    And sadly they’re not alone are they, Rachel Maddow?

    What do you say to such deranged hatred?

  27. Rincon says:

    Hardly rooting against a cure, but certainly saddened at the incompetent response by this administration. To see how it should have been done right, look at Taiwan, Honk Kong, Korea, Germany, Iceland and Singapore, among others. Taiwan had 5700 flights every month from Mainland China, but managed to have only 235 cases of Coronavirus as of a week ago, with only 2 deaths. New York alone has lost over 3565 deaths so far. So far as I can tell, Taiwan did it without major closings of schools or businesses.

    See if you disagree with any of my reasons for being critical of the Trump Administration’s response (I count 13):

    Our response to the pandemic? A President who called it a Democratic hoax as late as early March, compared it to just a bad flu season, who shook hands with hundreds of supporters even after some states had locked down their citizens (what a great example he set), and encouraged us to continue to go out and mix it up with others as late as Mid March. He also disbanded our Pandemic Task Force in 2018, tried to cut CDC funding by nearly a third (Congress overrode him), got rid of our only epidemiologist stationed in China, and to my knowledge, didn’t quarantine a single US citizen or even check incoming passengers for a fever until late March, and tried to cut CDC funding by nearly a third (Congress overrode him) in 2018. The virus arrived here in January, on the same day that Taiwan took action.

    We were also perhaps the last advanced country to come up with a test for Corona, rejecting offers from private enterprise and Germany to send us test kits as the poorly funded CDC botched it. It’s called putting all of your eggs in one basket – and it had a weak bottom. We also apparently had little or no PPE stockpiled as evidenced by the fact that health care workers cannot keep supplied with such inexpensive and simple protection as N95 masks and it goes without saying that the rest of us are just up a creek so far as our chances of getting these masks are concerned. The Administration said we shouldn’t wear masks as they are useless, but now reversed itself to the degree that they urge us today to wear scarves if we have no masks. BTW, while we are facing a major shortage of ventilators, Germany is sending them to Spain!

    By the way, this past week I just received a postcard from the President himself advising me on proper personal protection procedures. Since China first reported it to the World on December 30th, and the first documented case here was on January 20, it only took his administration 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 months to get the message to me via this route. By now, it was a total waste of money, since epidemics expand geometrically. In January or early February, it would have been very worthwhile, but as Trump himself said, “who knew?” I’ll tell you who knew. The Pandemic Task Force that he fired!

  28. Rincon says:

    Sorry, I just discovered stupid mistake number 14: The price of ventilators has risen from $25,000 to 40,000 and is still rising, since Trump said the states need to bid against each other. Taiwan took a slightly different approach to face masks and presumably, ventilators; they rationed them, just like this great country did in World Wars I and II. We have become so insanely capitalistic (read: dog eat dog) that we have decided that those with the money deserve their lives saved. Those without can go scratch – or die.

  29. Anonymous says:

    For cultists, like Athos, it’s all about the cult leader isn’t it?

    Even his questions revolve round how what has been said, all comes back to the Dear Leader.

    No one could simply say that we ought to entrust professions with d cushions that they are best trained to deal with. No one can assert that the leading professions in the country are telling us that, in a best case scenario, whether certain drugs are beneficial or not needs to be determined through the scientific method they’ve used for years without members of the cult having their feelings hurt and asking why those physicians hate the great leader so.

    Detailing all the reasons people have today for hating trump would use up all the internets 1s and 0s so I won’t try here but geez, cultists, discos site your egos from the dear leader before you find yourself listening to loud Muzak lined up at a bunch of picnic tables where a guy is serving what seems to be punch.

  30. Rincon says:

    I agree that arguing with facts isn’t very productive here. I rarely receive a serious rebuttal, but much later, I almost always find that, despite said facts, minds haven’t changed in the least. Case in point is my list of fourteen ways the Trump Administration fouled up the response to Covid 19, some of which are particularly egregious. No rebuttal, but those reading my list will continue with their faith or lack thereof, in our fearless leader.

    It’s a little like religion. Faith doesn’t necessarily have to be based on evidence. People often believe what they want to believe and will even reject evidence to the contrary once they become invested in a belief. I suppose we all do that more than we should. It is one of our weaknesses as humans.

  31. Rincon says:

    I would like to ask though, since no one has refuted my list, does that mean that no one has found anything inaccurate, or are most of you just ignoring the words and going on with your days? Perhaps I’m just wasting everyone’s time.

  32. Anonymous says:

    I enjoyed them. Fwiw

  33. Steve says:

    Since you ask:
    I think you hit all 14 on target.

    I should remind you (both) I have made clear I did not vote Trump in 16 and (as I have stated on numerous posts) he hasn’t done enough to earn my vote in 20.

    And I think the owner of this WordPress page has stated several times he’s not all that impressed with Trump either. (I suspect he’s a never Trumper Republican and I know of quite few of them)

    Don’t act all verklempt you aren’t getting responses. Most people here agree with most of what you wrote.

  34. Rincon says:

    Thanks for that Steve. Turns out I was a little off on one item. Seems that the Trump Administration did indeed quarantine passengers from a cruise ship and a couple of planeloads of people arriving from Wuhan in the early stages.

  35. Steve says:

    In the early stages it was already too late.
    because it can hide asymptomatic for so long and appear as a cold for most, the virus had spread over the whole of the OECD world before China discovered a spike in pneumonia cases, let alone figured out there was a novel coronavirus on the loose.
    In short, there was no stopping it. Once known, the response is what mattered. We all know what that has been, not just here but all over the OECD world.
    Macau is seeing a fresh spike now. China closed down a new province. Europe suffered from their own social moires, cheek kissing? Anyone?

    Social distancing could have prevented as many deaths and might have slowed it earlier, but it never had any chance of containing what clearly is a stealth virus.
    There could well be a whole large portion of the population who already have immunity and never knew they had any virus at all.

    This is why I discount any of the early reactions and concentrate on steps taken or missed in the aftermath.

    Now, what happens in Switzerland, that is going to be the question. That country is taking a balanced approach.

  36. Steve says:

    Oh…antibody testing.
    When those tests are ready, everyone needs to be checked, the whole population.
    Even if a recovery has been well documented, those cases will be a baseline of proof for test viability in real life.

  37. Athos says:

    I just read your “list” Rinny. Why refute it? To what purpose would it be to try and convince a dedicated Trump hater that he’s(the Donald) actually doing quite well with what we have? Imitate Taiwan? Good idea but for the fact that the World Health Organization totally ignored Taiwan, didn’t they?
    And do you have no memory of the vindictive heat Trump took when he banned flights from China January 31? What howls of righteous indignation would spew forth if we were to monitor and sequester US citizens like S.Korea? Civil liberties? Constitutional protections? As to testing, how accurate are these tests from Germany, England, et al? Our early tests were failing at a rate of 1 in three, if my memory serves correct. The ones coming out now (and over the next 2 weeks) will further amplify American Greatness.

    And don’t even pretend that leftist have promoted the suffering of this nation as preferred to another 4 years of Trump. Any decision to return our nation to work (and possibly avert a crippling Recession) will be political dynamite. Pelosi and Schiffty are already talking about investigating Trump’s decision making process and WE AREN’T EVEN OUT OF QUARANTINE YET!

    And Steve, your comment about China has me shaking my head. We still haven’t gotten any truth from them (what do you suppose is the REAL death count?) and it wasn’t till well past Chinese New Year celebrations that China (and the world) started taking notice of this pandemic.

    I also remember Pelosi being too busy tearing up Trump’s speech (SOTU) to pay any attention to his warning about this Coronavirus in that same speech! And aren’t you all happy we took the time to Impeach Trump over a second hand bs whistle blower complaint (while all this virus was building in Wuhan)?

    little p, Rinny and Steve, I will never (repeat NEVER) understand people with such contempt for their own country and the efforts of their fellow citizens, as you fellas. It’s no wonder they called my Dad’s generation the Great Generation. Their only fault was raising a batch of ungrateful, privileged spoiled brats that personify “cutting off their nose to spite their face”.

    Also, I have had no word of what is going on in Switzerland. Why is that not being reported, Steve?

  38. Anonymous says:

    Boy that’s some memory you got on you athos. Not that it’s going to affect how you remember, or misremember as the case may be, but for anyone else here, Trump NEVER banned travel from China. Heck, he never banned travel from Wuhan even. But hey, you do you. And the only thing Rincon or I said had to do with Trump and the heinous things he’s done. Nothing about hating the country or any such thing but again, you do you and remember and misremember as you will.

    April 4, 2020

    Since Chinese officials disclosed the outbreak of a mysterious pneumonialike illness to international health officials on New Year’s Eve, at least 430,000 people have arrived in the United States on direct flights from China, including nearly 40,000 in the two months after President Trump imposed restrictions on such travel, according to an analysis of data collected in both countries.

    The bulk of the passengers, who were of multiple nationalities, arrived in January, at airports in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Newark and Detroit. Thousands of them flew directly from Wuhan, the center of the coronavirus outbreak, as American public health officials were only beginning to assess the risks to the United States.

  39. “after President Trump imposed restrictions on such travel”

  40. Rincon says:

    I see, Athos. You saw no reason to bother refuting any of the facts that I presented, perhaps because they cannot be refuted. Instead, I read a rant containing precious little information. As for not getting truth from China, I will point out one truth we ARE getting: Shipments. Yes, China is back in business.

    Among your empty statements: “As to testing, how accurate are these tests from Germany, England, et al? Our early tests were failing at a rate of 1 in three, if my memory serves correct. The ones coming out now (and over the next 2 weeks) will further amplify American Greatness.”

    The last sentence is statement of pure faith, sort of like some Christian groups of earlier times,convinced that the second coming was imminent. Funny that you should pick Germany, which has experienced a very low death rate compared to its peers. Although it’s tricky to document the accuracy of any of these tests, since there is no gold standard, I have seen absolutely no evidence that Germany’s have any issues whatsoever. Have you? Believing things with no evidence is called fantasy. There is evidence though, that Germany’s tests are indeed accurate: They are produced by multiple sources. Now, what is your evidence that our tests are even reasonably accurate? Actually, I trust the governments of both countries to provide reasonably accurate information. You only trust one. If you were German, is there any reason to believe that you wouldn’t be crowing about the superiority of German testing?

    I can see why you think that the Trump Administration has done a fine job. Why, just listen to his own words. You do believe his every word, don’t you?

    “We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.”
    “We have it very much under control in this country.”
    “And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”
    “I don’t think it’s going to come to that, especially with the fact that we’re going down, not up. We’re going very substantially down, not up.” — Trump at a press conference, when asked if “U.S. schools should be preparing for a coronavirus spreading.”
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.”
    “No, I’m not concerned at all. No, we’ve done a great job with it.” — Trump, when asked by reporters if he was concerned about the arrival of the coronavirus in the Washington, D.C., area.
    “And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”

    And now, the piece de resistance:

    “I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic,”

    Keep the faith, Athos. I’m sure this is all part of his brilliant strategy, whatever it is.

  41. Steve says:

    Actually, Athos, I erred on that.
    It’s Sweden using a balanced approach.
    But they appear to be failing.

    The new closure in China came after they started easing up the restrictions.
    They closed a county just a few days ago:

    Of course China and NOK and Russia and Saudi and others have lied about their numbers.
    That’s never been in question. But it does not preclude using them in conjunction with other legit sourcing to come up with a valid dataset.

    And none of this support Trumps clear failure to act on clear evidence he chose to ignore.
    This country has the best resources in the world and Trump refused to let them do what they do best.
    That is unforgivable.

  42. Athos says:

    Steve, “This country has the best resources in the world and Trump refused to let them do what they do best.” ??? What is Trump preventing “the best resources in the world” from doing?

    Rinny, I will keep the faith because I was raised to believe in God, and his son (my Lord and Savior) Jesus. I was also raised to believe in the United States of America that despite ALL her heinous mistakes somehow managed to win a world war, outlast a communist regime and win that cold war, and put a man on the moon, because of that belief in Jehovah. And I don’t apologize if you find faith in God and in the United States beneath you.

    Little p, if hate, venom, envy and greed were worth money, you’d be richer that Bill Gates. Lay down your TDS, and your life will improve. Guaranteed.

  43. Steve says:

    Athos…you answer your own question by asking it in the first place.

    In your heart, you know he held us all back.

  44. Anonymous says:

    Trump is evil. No good comes from evil.

    When trump is burning in hell I’ll be peeing on his grave and my only concession will be that I will wear boots as I know I won’t be the first one there (I enjoy sleeping in)

  45. Rincon says:

    Athos, you keep the faith because you were raised to believe in God. I have no objection to that, but I certainly hope that you went above and beyond what you were taught by your parents and examined the evidence for Christianity for yourself – and there’s plenty – because it’s important that you reach your own conclusion after examining the evidence, not because you were programmed that way. Too many Christians, Muslims, and so called patriots believe without examination and treat their belief system as if it was offered cafeteria style. For example, I don’t see how anyone who is truly Christian can deny marital rights to gays while allowing those same rights for divorced people who remarry. The Bible condemns both. Or to condemn abortion while ignoring the many times Jesus said to GIVE to the poor (not to hope that a rising tide will lift their boat too).

    As for crediting God with putting us on the moon, would it have been equally valid for the Ottomans to credit Muhammad for their once magnificent empire? Or for the Romans to credit their gods as being superior to the Christian God while they were throwing Christians to the lions? I see no evidence that God micromanages us. Maybe the meek will inherit the Earth, but for now, it’s the rich and powerful that have control.

    But I digress. I remember the tirades in this space for every little thing that Obama did wrong of failed to do (I love the one about him not being born here). To assert that our response to Coronavirus has been anywhere near as effective as that of the several countries I named ignores the evidence. BTW, add Australia to the list. They seem to have gotten it under pretty good control. New cases have been dropping dramatically for a week, and they have had only 49 deaths compared to our 10,000 so far with new cases still rising.

    Yes, the U.S. is a great country, but we have declined in many ways, partially because of our arrogant attitude that we are better than them even when the evidence points squarely in the other direction. They say you can’t learn with your mouth open. Similarly, we don’t learn when we constantly tell ourselves that we can’t learn from other nations because we’re so much better than them.

  46. Athos says:

    Steve, Held us all back from what? What in my heart am I suppose to know? That big government is rarely the solution? I’m still waiting for all those government funded models to come anywhere near reality (although I’d rather have those that produce the models apologize for being so far off)

    Rinny, pride is (in my estimation) the chief sin and cause for downfall among men. We look to God as our provider. And if you don’t know that, then there is nothing I can tell you other than seek ye first the kingdom of God, and then all other things will be added unto you. But if you can’t let go of your sodomy or your murder (3,000 abortions/day at $950per) then we have nothing to discuss.

    The reason we are the greatest country in this age is self evident, isn’t it? Why else would you live here if there are so many better places to live? Or is it just Trump that sets you off? We even survived President Zero. Amazing how rich he became after leaving office, isn’t it? Probably not Hill and Bill’s kinda riches, but then it’s still early for him and Michelle, huh?

    And little p’s comment speaks for itself, doesn’t it?

  47. Steve says:

    Doubling down does you little favor, Athos.

    It is abundantly clear Trump knew the outbreak was out of control in China as early as November 2019. Yet he complimented them for having it under control and said it was nothing.

    You know this is true.

    And you know it is unforgivable.

  48. Steve says:

    Joe Biden just picked up a whole lot of Non Partisan interest.

  49. Rincon says:

    Greatest country in the world sounds a bit arrogant and not necessarily accurate. Don’t get me wrong. I love this country. I love my wife too, but I don’t claim that she’s the greatest person on the planet (although she is a very good match for me, which isn’t easy).

    So let’s see, how are we so much greater than all the others?

    Are we healthier than they are? Probably not, since we were 43rd in longevity last time I checked. Our neonatal survival ranks about the same.
    What about suicide? One would expect the greatest country in the world to have fewer suicides than others because our citizens are happier and more satisfied. Oh, too bad. We have the 34th HIGHEST suicide rate out of more than 183 countries. OK, that’s not it.
    Maybe it’s our low crime rates. You know, because we’re all so good to each other. Well, I’m not sure about grand theft auto, but in homicides, we appear to rank 143 out of 230 countries, with 1 being the best. OK, that’s not it either.
    Maybe it’s because our justice system is the best in the world, making us all equal under the law. Well, we’re not too bad, but the World Justice Project ranks us 21st out of 128 countries. Well, at least we’re in the top 20%, but the greatest? Hmmm.
    How about happiness? It’s subjective, but let’s see. We rank 19th out of 156 countries. Top 15%. Pretty good, but greatest?
    Maybe it’s because so many other countries perform abortions. Oops, come to think of it, we do too.

    Several European countries seem to outrank us again and again, such as Finland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, etc. Why don’t you consider any of them the greatest? Because we’re bigger maybe? I would certainly agree that, compared to the other really big nations, we do very well. Is that it? You’re excluding smaller nations?

    OK Athos, I give up. What is it specifically that makes us the “greatest country in the world? Or will you simply not acknowledge the question?

    You may call it America bashing. I call it reasonable humility. Chest thumping isn’t patriotic. Helping your fellow man is.

  50. Athos says:

    On the contrary, Steve, I’m curious how you know it was “abundantly clear Trump knew the outbreak was out of control in China as early as November 2019”, when Wuhan made no mention until the end of December and still maintained it wasn’t transmitted person to person as late as January 14th or 15th>as confirmed by the WHO.

    November was the beginning of the open hearings for Trumps articles of impeachment in the house, wasn’t it? Shifty had all the secret testimony starting in Sept. and then opened up the dog and pony show bout the middle of November. I have absolutely no memory of Wuhan virus at that time.

    If your beginning premise is Orange Man bad (or any of little p’s descriptors) and squeeze whatever facts into that narrative, you’re not open to reason, are you? And given Joe Biden’s glowing praise of Bolshevik Bernie, and the direction he wants to take the country, I see no other alternative for the hope of preserving our Republic, than the Donald. And make no mistake, the MSM is clearly on board to remove at all costs, Orange Man.

  51. Athos says:

    Rinny, you are proof positive that leftist thinking rots your brain. So your wife isn’t the greatest person on the planet, huh? I’m sure that’s welcome news to her. My wife IS the greatest person in the world to me, and there in lies the distinction between you and me. And that is also why the United States of America is the greatest nation, ever. There is no perfect world, Rin-man. No Utopia in this world. That is the reason for my faith in the one true God.

    Utopia is in the NEXT world. But living in Henderson, NV in the year 2020, is pretty good living for me. (It’s called gratitude, dude. You should try a little, your life will be much better and your wife may go up in you estimation of ‘greatest people’!)

  52. Craig Zabel says:

    Instead of brain rot, I prefer to believe that we think in much different ways. My wife is the finest person in the world TO ME, but I didn’t qualify it that way. Objectively, by our moral standards, there is someone that (theoretically) is the greatest person in the world. The odds of any one person being the greatest one are one in several billion. I accept that I likely never even met the greatest person in the world, much less got her to marry me. Your observation that my wife wouldn’t accept that she isn’t the greatest person in the world implies that many, many married people have the greatest spouse in the world. That is impossible, yet you appear to believe it. You also assume that my wife is haughty enough to EXPECT me to consider her the greatest person in the world, which, in my opinion, would automatically disqualify her for that position as I believe humility would be a prerequisite.

    I note that you, as predicted, completely ignored my asking specifically what makes us the greatest country in the world. I am left to assume that you firmly believe that we live in the greatest country in the world, but have no idea why you believe it.

  53. Craig Zabel says:

    Craig Zabel today is me, Rincon. Somehow, the computer put the contents of my note pad in the blank.

  54. Rincon says:

    Craig Zabel today is me, Rincon. Somehow, I managed to put the contents of my note pad into the blank.

  55. Rincon says:

    BTW, I’ve always wondered why so many Christians are adamant about defending our leader, a serial, unrepentant adulterer who not only cheated on his wife, but slept with a porn star and a Playboy Bunny, and then bribed them to keep quiet. A man who refers to his own Christianity – if he actually is one – in only the most vague and obtuse ways, a man who in 1999, said, “I am pro-choice in every respect.” and who since, has only very recently expressed any strong pro life sentiments.. This is also a man who has been documented as telling over 10,000 lies, and is unrepentant about any of them. He actively participated in the fraud that was perpetrated on the students of Trump University. He is and has been involved in literally dozens of scandals, and has been forced to pay compensation by the courts on numerous occasions for decidedly unChristianlike behavior.

    The poster child for Conservative Christians is giving it a black eye.

  56. Anonymous says:

    Rincon defending Trump has nothing to do with being Christian. And no Christian would defend Trump on the basis of religion.

    And your points about this country being objectively “less great” than many countries, in so many ways is obvious to even the most disinterested observer in fact the more disinterested the more obvious it is. I’d wager though that the same guy who professes his undying love for this great country today would have, if asked only a few short four years ago had an entirely different answer. Heck all you’d have to do to know what he thought of the country then was read what he wrote; love me after line of truly hate filled rhetoric about the people their ideas and ideals and the actions of those chosen to lead. Reading the things he says now, and contrasting them to what he said before is good for a large go though and a sigh.

  57. Athos says:

    I won’t disagree with everything stated about Trump. But he was a far superior choice than Hill C, and is miles above Joe B IF you don’t want the fundamentally changed America promised by O. As to his foibles, that is where you non believers always stumble with those of us with faith. God can use you right where you are, not where you should be. And the instruments God has used to save His people have ranged all over the map (jawbone of a donkey, a talking donkey, etc) If you really want to blow your mind, read about a character named King David in the old testament. All the bad stuff he did and he was the apple of God’s eye!!

    We aren’t perfect, Rinny, we’re just forgiven!

    PS you didn’t read my Utopia paragraph, did you? There is no place on the face of the earth I’d rather be than in my home in Henderson, Nevada. THAT’S what makes the USA the best country in the world. And it’s a damn shame I have to spell it out to you! You must have gotten some liberal education from some godless university not to have learned that fact.

    And humility has got NOTHING to do with it. I am married to the BEST woman in the world. You can do with that what you will!

  58. Steve says:

    ” As far back as late November, U.S. intelligence officials were warning that a contagion was sweeping through China’s Wuhan region, changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting.

    Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military’s National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document’s contents. ”

    Athos, I find it interesting you are so willing to take China’s word on it but you won’t accept this because it comes from the so called fake media.
    But it is, nevertheless, true.

    Here’s the source.

    The “Donald” almost had my vote with the economy and jobs but since his direct “Pearl Harbor” level ignorance of clear intel from our own people delivered direct to his daily briefings, he has lost me for good.
    Like it or not, actions have consequence. Trump’s actions cannot be forgiven. The consequences can be seen all around us.

  59. Athos says:

    ABC news article, Steve? Really? I’m surprised you didn’t cite Mother Jones or Morning Joe! Funny how this article came out today, isn’t it? Where were these helpful deep staters back in November, eh Steve? Back then, it might have made a difference (although the Impeachment was far more fun for them, wasn’t it?) Now, this article just looks like another “Orange Man Bad”. I’m really surprised you fell for it!

    And if the Donald can lose your vote over this, who are you going to vote for? The VP of Benghazi fame? The father of Burisma corruption? Strange standards you have, mister. It’s perfectly acceptable in this day and age to suffer TDS. But if you are interested in maintaining our freedoms, I’d seriously resist that virus.

    Face it, Steve. You’re infected. Read the Constitution and get yourself cured!

  60. Anonymous says:

    The cultist referring to the Constitution when his dear leader takes actions everyday that spit in the face of every founding father that ever lived.

    The cultist cheers while his dear leader involves socialism as the savior of the country even while he criticized all prior (democratic ) president’s for lesser acts.

    He professes his love for the dear leader and invokes his Christianity for excusing the imperfections (few and probably won’t margined as they may be) while demonstrating the most vile hatred for all prior (democratic) presidents. And finally speaks to his “love” for the country today, even while for the last years of democratic rule he had nothing but venom for it.

    Infected? No just evil.

  61. Steve says:

    Athos, you did not disappoint. You trust China but not our own people.


  62. Athos says:

    When did I ever say I trusted China, Steve? Nothing could be further from the truth.

  63. Athos says:

    OMG, Steve, I just got it! You just played me with that old “Do you still beat your wife” question. Of course, that’s apropos for ABC news, isn’t it?? But I didn’t think you played that game. little p, yes. And sometimes Rinny. But I thought that was beneath you.

    Oh well. That’s too bad. But it is a crippling symptom of TDS.

    BTW, the rebuttals on your ABC story are already out saying it was total fabrication.

    You know.

    Fake news.

  64. Steve says:

    Timelines. It enters the US in Jan. China admits to it in Jan. People in the US reporting symptoms in December.
    Means November is certainly in the mix.

    Antibody testing will confirm.

    New York cases came from Europe, in February. Reports out today.

    Like it or not, this was spreading in November, at the speed of daily travel.

    ABC updated their story with the denial from our government. (reminds me of Watergate)
    ABC is sticking to their sources…again like Watergate.

    You will, of course, discount anything not in full lock step with your own opinion, anyone says. Nevertheless, IMO, reality is Trump was told it was coming and he chose to ignore it. Now he’s looking to lay blame everywhere, anywhere. But it’s not sticking.

    And we have this. He’s got all the creds to back up his claims.

  65. Herd immunity. There it is again.

  66. Athos says:

    “People in the US reporting symptoms in December.” Didn’t see that one, Steve. Big news at that time was Impeachment. Agreed?

    I’m hoping it WAS introduced in December. My wife was so sick over NYE that we ended up in the ER and a week hospital stay over flu/blood infection. I would love to get her tested for antibody (along with the rest of my family).

    And you really need to first address your TDS. Your hate blinds you more than anything attributed to my devotion of the Donald. You would have to be blind to miss the blatant hypocrisy of Trump’s treatment when suggesting hydroxychloroquine and Gov. Cuomo’s by our biased media (like ABC)

    And who could ever forget that relevant question that had to be asked of our President “How many deaths are acceptable to you?”
    (NBC News “journalist” Peter Alexander March 26)

    Acceptable to you, or snide “got cha” question?

  67. Anonymous says:

    Herd immunity.

    I keep hearing that.


    How long does it take the herd to get immunized from a “novel” virus and how many people will die before it happens?

  68. That is the question. Is this virus really any worse than the previous ones that did not require throwing 10 percent of the workforce onto the dole?

  69. Athos says:

    10% and going Up!

  70. Anonymous says:

    So, if its the question Thomas how is just taking the chance the solution?

    I mean, “MAYBE” the solution to the corona virus is drinking draino. I mean, I don’t know a single person who has died of drinking draino that had the virus do you? Maybe we (someone else of course and personally I’d like to nominate our leader since that what leaders are for, to try first) ought to not be so hasty as to eliminate this as an option.

  71. Anonymous says:

    Oh and here’s just more evidence that whatever “doctor” president says, is very very very unlikely to be true.

    “WUHAN, China—Chinese doctors who have for months treated coronavirus patients with chloroquine say there is no clear evidence the anti-malarial drug is effective against the deadly pathogen, raising questions about a remedy President Trump has touted as a potential cure.”

    And before you dismiss this as mere Chinese propaganda, the doctor quoted specifically mentions another US drug that he says might work.

  72. Story mentions chloroquine alone.

    LA doctor said he has found it only works if combined with zinc. The drug, he said, opens a channel for the zinc to enter the cell and block virus replication.

  73. Rincon says:

    Let’s see if I have this right. My criticism of Trump’s actions, or lack thereof, show that I don’t love this country, but Athos’ rejection of the entire mainstream media is proof of his. You just keep hanging out in your little echo chamber. Fox News and Brietbart, baby! And don’t forget Hannity!

  74. Anonymous says:

    LA doctor who owns clinic who never says how many patients he’s treated or…pretty much anything else other than that he has snake oil for sale.

    This is not how medicine is done. The quack.

  75. Athos says:

    Your TDS doesn’t affect your love of country, Rinny. The hate consumes YOU as a person. And the last I checked, Fox News was part of the mainstream media. ABC, NBC, MSNBC, and CNN are running Democrat attack ads, not news.

    In my opinion.

  76. Rincon says:

    Hey, Athos. Thank you for your pseudoprofessional opinion regarding my mental status. Not needed though. As I said, we think differently. I hope you don’t take anything I say regarding your wife personally. I know nothing at all about her and am referring to her as an example person of high standing, but she makes a great example of how we think differently.

    Your wife is human.
    No human is perfect, therefore, your wife is not perfect.
    Since people aren’t perfect, then any labeling of one as the best is necessarily made in comparison to others.
    Since you have absolutely no way of evaluating the other several billion people on the planet, you do not have the requisite knowledge to say that you have the best wife in the world. The term is hyperbole, which is fine, but it should be recognized as such by the speaker.

    Because we think differently, you will probably not accept this logic. OK, we agree to disagree.

    The other possibility is that your wife sometimes reads your posts, so you damn well BETTER say she’s the best. I think I’ll go with that.

    As for the mainstream media, you didn’t mention CBS, PBS, BBC, etc., but I suspect you also consider them to be Democrat propagandists. Are there any other television news outlets you trust besides Fox News? I’m talking news, not commentators.

    BTW, thanks for making this one such a lively discussion.

  77. Rincon says:

    BTW, the whole herd immunity is a little weird here. The term usually is used as it applies to a vaccinated population, since without vaccination, herd immunity simply means to let the virus run roughshod over the majority of a population until a large percentage are immune. The only estimate I’ve read of herd immunity for Coronavirus is that about 70% of people have to acquire immunity to the disease for herd immunity to occur. This is actually a very low figure. For most diseases, it runs around 85 or 90%.

    If your answer is to just let 2/3 of the Earth’s population come down with the virus, then it’s not an answer, it’s a consequence. The goal of reducing human to human contact is to slow it down enough so that we can reach herd immunity through vaccination, not exposure. We are running a massive experiment to find out if that is worthwhile.

  78. A vaccine could take years or never.

  79. Rincon says:

    Yep, it’s a gamble.

  80. Steve says:

    Spot on, Rincon.

    Sweden seems like the control, eh?

  81. Anonymous says:

    Just watched a great show about the Dust Bowl on PBS. Got me to thinking about people that’ll latch on to any hair brained scheme out there because well, nothing else is working.

    There was a guy down in Texas went around telling people that if you blew up some dynamite or some such, that it would “excite” the atmosphere and bring on the rain. Started up a company and farmers (them poor desperate souls) paid upwards of $300 to have this guy blow off some dynamite in their fields.

    A sucker born every minute and it’s sad to them bilked.

    Tex Thorntons story

  82. Steve says:

    Reality, Constitutional reality in fact, is our government TOOK AWAY the jobs. People didn’t “lose” their jobs. They were told they were no longer allowed to do their jobs.
    Under the constitution, this is a taking of private property which requires our government to make these people “whole”.
    It’s not socialism, it is constitutionalism.

  83. Athos says:

    Rin, you old sweet talking romantic, you! And I lean more towards an idiom over hyperbole (because I really did marry the best woman in the world).

    As to the anger, it is my wish that you would direct it toward where it will do the best good. Trump has been fighting the good fight for the past 4 weeks I’ve been watching him. Those clowns in the bogged down bowels of the FDA and the CDC are what get my goat. And that one clown that said the earliest a vaccine has EVER been approved was 4+years – is worthless!

    Or how about Dr. Emmanuel (the brother of “never let a crisis go to waste”) saying nobody goes out for ATLEAST 18 months. Yea.. that’s helpful. Might as well have the Chinese nuke the entire US. Actually, we’d have to be idiots to “shelter in place” past May 1.

    We’ve lost less than 50 per million in the US and YES IT SUCKS IF IT’S SOMEONE YOU KNOW! Just like is sucks we lost 15,000 men in the 2nd battle of Bull Run during the Civil War. We have over 7000 people die a day in the US (not counting 3,000 abortions per day).

    I don’t know about you fellas but I’m tired of hiding out at home. I hope over the next 2 weeks we decide to meet this virus in the street. Shelter the sick and elderly, and let the rest of us go back to work. (and get to golf!)

    And Steve, you better ask them fellas at KELLO how eminent domain worked out for them! Or the Bundys if you want to stay closer to home! I agree with you 100%. Gov Sissy-lack took my job away when he shuttered my business. But I’m not holding my breath until he makes me whole, are you? (Tom- a little help – was that a metaphor or a simile? or something else entirely?)

  84. Anonymous says:

    “Go drink some fish tank cleaner. Might help right?”
    -“Dr.” Trump

    “France reported dozens of heart incidents linked to an anti-malaria drug President Trump has hyped as a possible treatment for the coronavirus.

    Data released by France’s drug safety agency showed 43 cases of heart incidents linked to hydroxychloroquine, underscoring the risk of providing unproven treatments to COVID-19 patients.

    “This initial assessment shows that the risks, in particular cardiovascular, associated with these treatments are very present and potentially increased in COVID-19 patients. Almost all of the declarations come from health establishments,” the agency said. “These drugs should only be used in hospitals, under close medical supervision.”

  85. Rincon says:

    As I said in another post, you may very well be correct in saying that the treatment could be worse than the disease. Only time will tell. Ironically, the Swedish government has taken a very minimal approach to control the outbreak. We’ll have to see how they fare, among others.

    I agree that many government agencies such as the FDA are slow, but when their funding relative to GDP is less than it was 60 years ago, who do you think the culprit is? Although I certainly agree that part of it is governments’ natural tendency towards slowness and inefficiency, part of the problem is smaller government types who always want to keep funding cut to the bone, but then howl when the government’s actions reflect that lack of resources (firing the Pandemic Response Team and attempting to cut CDC funding by a third come to mind). Before I go further, I need you to know that, without Social Security and Medicare, the federal government actually spends less as a percentage of GDP than it did in 1960, even though its responsibilities are far greater than back then. So yes, there is a good case that they are underfunded. Try, Tables 2.3 and 14.5

    Once again, I agree that government is often too slow, but it isn’t as simple as it appears to the layman. When it comes to making a vaccine, one must consider how to go about testing it. First, there has to be testing of very small groups. Often, the vaccines fail and the producer must modify them before trying again. With animals, it’s easy. All you have to do is vaccinate one group and not another and then expose all of them to the virus. At least that was the case until PETA came along. With humans, you have to vaccinate enough so that some will be naturally exposed to the disease, which takes time, but not so many that a safety issue would put hundreds at risk. In the case of Corona, testing can go much faster than normal because so many will be quickly exposed.

    Even after a vaccine is approved, it is usually conditional, with the first several months’ production being administered to only those at greatest risk. This is because occasionally, any drug or vaccine can reveal some very ugly side effects that only become apparent after tens of thousands of people are exposed to said drug or vaccine. The old standby to justify this cautious approach is thalidomide, but many other pharmaceuticals have caused many problems over the years.

    The other problem is, who do you think tests the vaccine? The company, not the government. And the company has every reason to design their tests so that the vaccine will look as good as possible or to even cheat. This means there has to be extensive documentation by the company and checking for veracity by the government, which all takes time. It would be simpler for the government to do the tests for itself, but then free marketers such as yourself would scream bloody murder every time a vaccine failed.

    But once again, you are right that government can be maddening, but a fair part of that is a necessary evil.

  86. Rincon says:

    I just ran across the figures for the large number of people who have contracted the virus, but have not recovered, nor have they died. Out of 492,000 cases, only 28,664 have recovered, and 18,350 have died, leaving 445,000 patients who still have the active disease.
    We’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg in some ways.

  87. Athos says:

    “smaller government types who always want to keep funding cut to the bone” That’s a good one, Rin.. At $4 trillion spending a year (that’s on the books and at least admitted to) I’m sure we have different definitions of “cut to the bone”. I always love it when I look at a pie chart of the federal budget and there’s a 9.1% “other”. $3.8 trillion (not counting all the fed money and other unfunded liabilities) budget with a $345 billion “other” fund!! I just had a $800 million rounding error as if it were nothing. Only in DC do they call it a cut when you only increase your budget 8% instead of the 15% they were counting on.

    There’s a lot of piggies feeding off a lot of money and the possibility of policing that much outgo is next to impossible, wouldn’t you say? Maybe that’s the reason the Obama’s could buy that little get a way place in Martha’s Vineyard, huh? Of course, they aren’t alone, are they?

    But the “holier than thou” in your face riches doesn’t really bother anyone, anymore, does it? It’s almost like we expect it. Wanna bet nothing will come from those senators that got out of the market in a very timely manner? That anything will ever come from Hill/Bill’s Foundation $$?

  88. Rincon says:

    Your rant about the evils of government is hollow, Athos, since it comes from someone who defends the most immoral President in my lifetime. Try Googling “Trump financial benefits from Presidency” if you care at all. You might learn some things you’ll never see on Fox News.

  89. Rincon says:

    Interesting statistics, Steve. The numbers will change with time, as some countries had an earlier start than others. At the moment though, it’s a little hard to justify the measures we’ve taken if it only bought us a death rate of 39 per million rather than 58. We won’t really know though until a lot more time goes by. Lots of unknowns.

  90. Steve says:

    Interesting Sweden is doing only somewhat worse than the US, it does appear we aren’t getting much bang for the buck. Yes, time will tell.

    The coming antibody testing could be revealing. Hopefully, we test almost everyone.

  91. Athos says:

    OK Rin. You know we have a shut down and boredom so I did google “Trump financial benefits from Presidency” and up popped a 2018 US News and World Report article by Robert Schlesinger. Wow. If innuendo and “impossible to say” estimates, were proof of wrong doing, Trump would be gone! How did he phrase it? “possibly all of this is legal if unseemly” which really makes me wonder if the Donald and our good Mr. Schlesinger might have a little history, eh? But Regardless, Trumps’ alleged improprieties (“the most immoral President in my lifetime.” what are you, 2 years old? Certainly under 20! Hello Bill Clinton?) can be discussed AFTER you tell me how the Lightbringer afforded that cozy little bungalow in Martha’s Vineyard because the one isn’t dependent on the other, is it?

    And my point being the media (and your) coverage of the Obama foibles vs the Trump attacks. Ray Charles can see there’s bias in them stories!!

  92. Rincon says:

    News flash: Saying Hillary and Bill are guilty too does not not make Trump innocent. I never claimed to be a Clinton fan. I condemned their immoral behavior just as I do Trump’s.

  93. Athos says:

    Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Saying Donald Trump is “the most immoral President in my lifetime.” completely ignores the “pen and phone guy” namesake of ObamaCare; Bill and Hill, kill ’em in Waco, Jeffrey Epstein didn’t commit suicide, let the Haitians eat cake; tricky Dickie I am not a crook and my favorite “we’ll have them n’s voting for us for the next 200 years” VietNams escalating own, LBJ!

    But then, if you’re totally embarrassed to have a brash NYC political neophyte running the US instead of your girl friend “what difference at this point does it make?” Uranium One, I can’t help you. (and Jeffrey Epstein didn’t commit suicide!)

    But let me ask you this. How did you feel on election night when she didn’t come out but sent John Podesta to give you the news? Kinda low class, huh?

  94. Rincon says:

    I am not enamored with the Clintons nor Obama, as you are with Trump. Their misdeeds deserve criticism. So do Trump’s. Try not being a partisan some time. You might like it.

  95. Athos says:

    The Clinton’s were small State (Arkansas) thieves with Alinsky ties. Bush was globalist and the grand daddy frontman for all things Alinsky was none other than Barry Soetoro. Do you really want what Alinsky-ites are selling? Donald will come and go. Maybe he can whittle down that leviathan big government or maybe he can’t. At least he won’t scrap the 2nd amendment, put us all on some form of Medicare or Medicaid, or go down the road to the new green deal or forgive all student debt or put the country on a “living wage”. And you know in your hearts that what the “new” democrat party is selling.

    And you really should ask yourself why Donald has been attacked from the day he was elected (let alone sworn in). Why did the Obama DOJ run him thru the FISA court and monitor his campaign? What up with the Mueller report? And what was that nonsense Impeachment non-hearing about?

    It reeks to me of deep state graft, and other shenanigans, Rin. And with a budget of $4trillion per year, that can make a lot of unsavory people rich for generations, yes?

    If you could somehow point out something positive, American based, and constitutional that the Democrats are promoting, I’m all ears. The only thing I see is ORANGE MAN BAD. But maybe that’s your Nirvana.

  96. Rincon says:

    Your “Leviathin government sans Medicare and SS, isn’t spending any more as a percentage of GDP than it did in 1960. Your own leader’s Web site admits that tables 2.3 and 14.5. Go ahead, prove me wrong. You can’t, so why insist on perpetuating the most damaging Conservative myth of them all?

    “Positive things Democrats promote: 1) Join the rest of the world in efforts to slow climate change. Replace climate change information banned from government Web sites by Trump. 2) In an attempt to improve our nearly third world life spans, create a health care system that produces results as good as, say, Australia. 3) In an attempt to reduce our third world homicide and incarceration rates, make marijuana legal (oh yeah, we already did that over the screams of die hard Conservatives), and. Consider the Portugal approach. Reduce crime with social prevention rather than just locking them up. 4) Put the EPA back together after Trump’s dismantling of environmental laws, and especially ban chlorpyrofos. 5) Remove destructive tariffs and place nontariff consequences on China’s unwanted behavior, 6) Reinstate the Pandemic Task Force and continue funding the CDC and WHO. 7) Install a President that tells the truth, or at least only lies occasionally. 8) Create a migrant worker policy and treat illegal aliens in a humane way. 9) Eliminate gerrymandering. 10) Stop the U.S. sponsored drug wars around the world. 11) Install cabinet members with at least a modicum of expertise. And stop firing anyone who doesn’t parrot the company line. 12) Address income disparity with ANYTHING besides supply side (trickle down) economics.

    Ah, but I tire of this. Tell you what. Just undo all of the negative things Trump has done, and that would be an impressive list of positives for Democrats. Here’s a place to start:

  97. Athos says:

    This is now the 100th reply on this thread. Do you get a bonus for this, Tom?

    Rinny. “sans Medicare and SS” you do realize those expenditures are on a trajectory to bankrupt our nation, right? And where is it written that government spending needs to GROW on pace with GDP? There are NO government programs we can’t trim or eliminate? Is that your position?

    Points positive D:

    1) Take your efforts to slow climate change to China and India and when they comply, come talk to me.

    2) If you really want a good health care system, go private, not public. Government control only adds another layer between the doctor and the patient, and government waste is legendary. Tort reform would, of course, be a necessity.

    3) You wanna get high? Go ahead, knock yourself out. Not legal for anyone under 18. I see Lee’s Liquor and Drug Discount Store popping up everywhere!

    4)EPA was a Nixon creation and is a monster. Good intentions morphed into the Blob. There’s $8 billion we can save a year. Turn it over to the states

    5)?? What do you propose? “Bailiff whack his pee-pee?” Get real. China must pay. Why do you want to give the CCP such an advantage over the USA?

    6)No NO and HELL NO. What part of the WHO’s actions that hurt us are you not understanding?

    7) Who do you suggest? If you like your plan you can keep your plan Barry O? We hold these truths self evident uh uh you know the rest??

    8) Treat illegals in a humane way. Like give them driver’s licenses, food stamps, government housing, welfare payments, school lunches, free education thru college and beyond, and ballots printed in their own language so they can vote in our elections?

    No Thank you. They can go back home, get in the back of the line and apply legally.

    9) I agree, but good luck with that (kind of like term limits)

    10) Be specific.

    11)Please. You’ve never run business, have you?

    12)Take away their hammocks and people will go to work. Teach people they’re responsible for their own lives is the best way to address income disparity.

    You’re going to have to deal with your own hatred of Trump. That, Rin me boy, is an inside job.

    PS. I love his court appointments.

  98. Rincon says:

    You asked for positive. I gave it to you. Trump’s actions have been primarily negative, so reversing them is generally positive. Now you like negative? Make up your mind.

    I need to ask that if Social Security and Medicare are the problems with the budget, then please stop complaining about the rest of government operations as if they are the cause of our deficits, or at least if you do choose to complain, please refrain from vacuous rants with no information. They aren’t very persuasive.

    Too many other things to argue about here, but I think I’ll use point two because it’s easy. You say private is better than public, but those countries that provide primarily public funded medical care get much better results. This strongly suggests public is better. Where is your evidence that private is better?

  99. Rincon says:

    Oh, you asked me to be specific on # 10. How about Columbia, Afghanistan, and Mexico for starters?

    On # 11, I have been running a very successful business since 1991. Now, have YOU ever run a business?

    I find #12 particularly discouraging because of your obvious strong religious faith. Jesus didn’t say to allow the poor to get more money by letting the wealthy have lots, so it can trickle down to them (They were already doing that when Jesus arrived on the scene, and it wasn’t working, just like today), he said to GIVE to the poor.

    Acts 20:35 ESV
    In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

    Hebrews 13:16 ESV
    Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

    2 Corinthians 9:7
    Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    If you ignore these, then I have to wonder if you’re a cafeteria Christian, as most Americans are.

  100. Athos says:

    Here’s the difference. And play close attention cause you leftist atheist love to misinterpret this.

    Jesus didn’t tell the government take money (by force) from those that have and give it to the poor (after taking government’s cut, of course!) Re read the scripture that you quoted, Rin. Christians are to give what they have to the poor, not take what someone else has.
    And isn’t it appropriate that conservatives donate much more of their personal money to charities than the average democrat/leftist? Inotherwords, government hand outs (and social engineering) are in direct contradiction with 2 Cor. 9:7.

    Trumps court judge selections are positive, especially Kavanaugh and Gorsuch. Cutting the capital gains tax is positive. Eliminating federal regulations is positive. Putting tariffs on China, with the possibility of bringing key industry jobs back to the USA (medical manufacturing and drugs) positive.
    Building a wall to be able to secure our Southern Border is positive.

    We have been able to SHRINK the size of government in the past (Warren Harding/1921 immediately comes to mind) Moving departments out of Washington, DC and putting them in the interior (fly over deplorable country) would be a great way to starve the beast (because cutting taxes doesn’t work with our Congress, does it?) All bills should have a sunset clause. Period. How many shut downs have we had that no one noticed? And no one was inconvenienced (except the MSM and Smokey the Bear!) As to SS and Medicare/Medicaid Welfare, that’s a whole new blog, isn’t it?

    I know you don’t live in Nevada, Rin, but do you live in the USA? My health care is excellent right here in Southern Nevada. Actually, we do have government run health care here in the USA and my veteran friends say it stinks. Maybe you remember reading about all the “dying on waiting lists” we went thru back in 2014 (Lightbringer years) at the VA in Phoenix.. Maybe you don’t remember.

  101. Rincon says:

    A reply I have heard from many cafeteria Christians. The apostles asked Jesus what was the most important commandment. His reply was that there is only one commandment: The Golden Rule. Is that truly the basis for your opinion? If your desire to leave many of the poor unhelped, apparently to the point of starvation if not enough people give, is truly based on love rather than resentment, then your conscience can be clear. Of course, private charity has never come anywhere meeting the need before government stepped in, but hey, your conscience shouldn’t have to think that deeply, right?

    Cutting capital gains is positive all right. A gift to the rich. Tell me, what is the rationale for charging more to people who work for their money than to those whose money works for them? I’ve always thought it was to motivate people to invest. Since there’s nothing to do with extra money other than spending it, who needs motivation to invest? And let me suggest ever so subtly, that hardly anyone in history has ever decided not to spend money simply because of a lower capital gains rate.

    Harding? You mean this Harding? “His brief administration accomplished little of lasting value, however, and soon after his death a series of scandals doomed the Harding presidency to be judged among the worst in American history”
    Or Or the Harding who ranked as the 4th worst President in US News?
    Even the conservative Heritage Foundation put him among the 5 worst.
    Or here:
    I could go on for hours. Can you find even a single respected historian that ranks Harding near the top?

    Enjoy your Kool-Aid

    Congratulations on having good health care. I assume someone else pays the bills, because your charges are 40% more than those for citizens of any other country and your countrymen die younger than in 42 other countries, as do infants.

  102. Athos says:

    So government charity is sufficient for the poor? Is that what you believe?After spending $25 Trillion the percentage of people in poverty has remained the same over the last 50 years (around 14%). Our government welfare system is a cottage industry designed to keep those that enter the system, trapped in the system. If you think that’s better than Christian charity, than we have nothing further to discuss.

    Have you ever studied the Harding presidency? He was elected 100 years ago, and took office in 1921. To me, his greatest achievement was to appoint Andrew Mellon as Sec. of Treasury. World War 1 had inflation sky high, unemployment sky high, and a crushing war debt. The Mellon plan was put into action, Congress passed the necessary budget cuts and within 2 years (cause Harding died in 1923) everything was dramatically turned around. Now you can take the word of the Encyclopedia writers, the US NEWS writers and even the Heritage Foundation writers as gospel or you can go look yourself how dramatically our country turned around budget wise, economically and employment wise. As a working stiff, that’s what I call a great President.

    As for Health Care, I have Culinary Insurance which is a “Cadillac “Health plan. CAT scans, ultrasounds, angiograms, what ever I need, I can get, quickly and with extremely competent doctors. My wife, who had flu symptoms and had to go to the emergency room, (it was a bad blood infection) ran up a bill of $85,000, for a weeks stay. She’s covered by the Teacher’s Health Fund so we’ll have to pay a little over $1000 and she’s right as rain. Maybe somewhere else is 40% less but I’m satisfied and grateful for our life expectancy and quality of life, and I hope those other places are too.

    As to the capital gains reduction, now that I’m nearing retirement age, I’m paying on money I’ve saved over the years (from my after tax paychecks). Never really understood why my money should be taxed multiple times, but then again, I’d love to do away with the unconstitutional IRS (repeal Wilson’s 16th amendment) and replace with a VAT.

    Just some thoughts. And the funny thing is my Mom wasn’t a big Kool-Aid fan cause of all the sugar.

  103. Rincon says:

    So you have developed a simple formula for determining whether a President is good, bad, or ugly: If the economy did well during his administration, then he was a good President, as if the President is the only determinant of economic progress. I would submit that a postwar economy with the sudden availability of the automobile, airplane, central heating, refrigeration, electric lighting, radio, telephone, etc., etc., just might have had a little effect of its own during Harding’s time.

    By your definition, not only is Trump a good President, the leaders of most countries of the world are also great men and women, since the postrecession boom has been worldwide. What a coincidence that all of these countries have such great leadership at the same time, and that most countries in 2007-12 or so all had terrible leaders at the same time!

    In my opinion, most changes show their economic benefits over a period of many years and even decades. For example, the legislation that provided one of the primary causes of the 2008 recession was passed in the ’90’s. Presumably though, you believe that George W. was one of the worst Presidents of our time. Yay, we agree!

    Your health plans that you are so happy with appear to be union benefits. Most of us aren’t so lucky as to benefit from this form of socialism. Aren’t you anti union?

    The capital gains tax rate has nothing to do with money being taxed multiple times. You only pay tax on your profits, which is new money. As long as you brought it up though, most money is taxed multiple times because there is no way around it. Say a plumber fixes a sink, and his customer pays him with cash from his paycheck. The customer pays tax on his money, then the plumber pays it on his fee. If the plumber then has dinner at a restaurant and pays for it with the money he just collected, the cook and waitress both pay taxes on that money. Same money taxed 3 times in one day.
    Contrast that with someone who bought At&T stock in 1965, and held onto it. That person pays no tax on the profit until he sells, which can be decades. This is an automatic tax advantage for capital gains, but you think he should get an even greater perk, a lower rate than those who work. The real perk is if he doesn’t sell and then dies, leaving the stock to his daughter. If she sells it the day she inherits it, she pays no tax on the profits and neither will the estate – tax free income! As a matter of fact, if the stock drops in value before she sells it, she can deduct the so called loss from other income. It’s called cost basis adjustment at time of death. Google it.

    I’d say only in America, but this kind of garbage is routine in 3rd world countries.

  104. Athos says:

    My goodness Rinny, I had no idea that you were such a disagreeable pessimist. No wonder you don’t value your wife, your healthcare plan, your country or your heritage! Jesus was tailor made for you. Check Him out and learn to enjoy life!

    Harding (thru the Mellon plan) cut taxes on the rich, cut federal government spending to the bone(hoo-ray for a republican Congress!) and took unemployment from 15.6% down to 3.2%! He ended a recession in 18 months! He recognized that DC doesn’t have the ability to rule over people. And his plan has never been tried again! Balance the budget? We can’t even cut the built in yearly increases!

    So, yes, that is my definition of a great President. Take the POWER away from DC (centralized) and give it back to the PEOPLE (as in “We the People…”)

    My idea of a terrible President is one that takes the power away from the people and gives it to the elite’s (you know, our BETTERS) Wilson gave us the IRS amendment along with prohibition, and popular vote Senators. FDR gave us the ponzi scheme of Social Security. LBJ and his war on poverty gave us the Welfare State (or plantation would be a better descriptive work). Nixon with the EPA, and taking us off the gold standard AND was the president that gave us Chief Justice William Rehnquist and 2 other justices that legalized abortion. Carter was an idiot who’s only redeeming grace was giving us Ronny Ray-gun! Bush 41 and 43 were privileged Rinos. BJ Clinton (enough said) and of course the Lightbringer Barry Soetoro who gave us ObamaCare, and weaponized the DOJ against his enemies.

    If the Donald can drain a little piece of that Swamp known as DC, and get some of the power back to the People, I’ll give him a thumbs up!

  105. Rincon says:

    I believe that a pessimist is one who thinks government cannot improve the lives of the citizens it serves. Taking power from the government and giving it back to the people may be worthwhile in some cases, but history is clear: If government doesn’t act, the rich and powerful run roughshod over the rest of us. I actually appreciate that we no longer live Upton Sinclair’s world, that the air and water are far cleaner than in the 1960’s, and that I can buy into a mutual fund and be assured that it is being run honestly and that the same applies to a variety of other investments.

    There are millions that are better off because of government action, and would even be dead, but don’t even know it. Our death rate from auto accidents is about 1/20th per million miles what it was in 1921, and airline safety is phenomenal. The same is true for workplace safety. Taking lead out of paint and gasoline saved millions from mental impairment. The list goes on, but I’m sure you would credit improved technology and private enterprise, which aided substantially, but you are quite happy to ignore the role government has played in these societal improvements and dozens, probably hundreds more. More often than not, private enterprise was dragged kicking and screaming when required to help keep us safe and healthy.

    I owe my lifestyle to government funded research and have benefited greatly. At age 17, because of what I had learned through government research, I decided the only way that I would do the amount of exercise required to stay healthy over my lifetime was to take up sports (not my forte back then). I still play a variety regularly and eat healthy, also because of what government funded research has learned. Whether it is due to lifestyle or not, I am healthier and more energetic than almost anyone else I know that’s near my age, with one major set of exceptions: Many of the people that I compete with in sports are also ridiculously healthy. Coincidence? In the world you advocate, I would be a sessile butterball, since private enterprise would never have paid for the research into what makes a healthy lifestyle. Even in this one way, the government of this country has benefited me far more than I could ever repay. THAT’s not being a pessimist. Railing about government and unions while reaping substantial benefits is.

    As I said, there are dozens of other examples, if you had the patience to read about them. So tell me, which major government functions should we eliminate?

  106. Rincon says:

    As long as I’m on a roll, I have to question your assessment of my patriotism. The most important difference between our country and a variety of third world nations is our form of government. If Mexico had our government and us, theirs, I believe they would have been the one that thrived. From you, I hear lots of complaining about the terrible way our government treats us. I am grateful for how well they treat us. So which of us is more patriotic?

  107. Athos says:

    First things first. “If Mexico had our government and us, theirs, I believe they would have been the one that thrived.” Why doesn’t Mexico copy our style of government and make it their own? We do not have a patent on a Republic Style government that gives inalienable rights to it’s citizenry with the rule of law. My question to you, Rin, is why has no other country followed our lead? There are plenty of countries that follow the broken promise of Socialism and Communism and Despotism, but no Republics. In fact, there are many (you included?) that want more socialism here, and less individual liberty. And I find that puzzling.

    2nd) “a pessimist is one who thinks government cannot improve the lives of the citizens it serves.” That would depend on the improvements, wouldn’t it? If our leaders faithfully execute the laws of the land (and not make those laws onerous and vague), and not tax the public wealth, (in other words-be good stewards of the public money), then government is a necessary evil. I believe our Founding Fathers knew (from studying all forms of government throughout the ages) that man is weak and prone to evil if left unchecked. I believe (as John Adams and many other founders) that our style of government requires a moral people.

    I do remember getting a booklet promoted by JFK in the early 60s teaching us youngsters how to do push ups, sit ups and the importance of exercise.
    In the Reagan years we had Arnold “the Terminator” doing the same thing. I also had my father and the local YMCA (pre Village People) instilling a love of healthy body, healthy mind. So there were private and public resources to draw from. (Church league basketball in the winter was big in my area of the country).

    My point is that our government has grown out of control. How many millions are on the federal pay roll and what is their necessary function? We’ve gotten so large that no one can comprehend our tax code, nor all our regulations. It’s almost impossible to find out how much money we are spending on any one thing, isn’t it? And you know as well as I that if a private company employed the accounting systems that our federal (and state and local) governments employ, they’d be in jail faster than Bernie Madoff!

    But those are my beliefs. I happen to think they’re more in line with our founding fathers than not. As to the big G protecting us from the “Upton Sinclair world”: who will protect us from Mark Zuckerberg? the Michael Bloombergs? Goldman Sachs? George Soros? The CCP?

    Question: When men (and women) sell their souls for money, what can the people do?

    Answer: Vote Trump and give him a super majority Senate/Congress. Obama had it in ’09/’10. Step back and let us give it try!

  108. Anonymous says:

    I think we can all agree that Trump is directly responsible for at beat shortening the lives of these American heroes and at worse outright killing them.

    Thank God for people like the governor who decided to rely on medical science instead of his gut.

    “drug touted by President Trump as a potential “game changer” amid the coronavirus outbreak showed no benefit for patients, according to an analysis of those hospitalized in Veterans Health Administration medical centers.

    The analysis found the two primary outcomes for COVID-19 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine were death and the need for mechanical ventilation. ”

  109. No, we do not all agree.

  110. Anonymous says:

    Alright then all of “us”.

  111. Rincon says:

    “Why doesn’t Mexico copy our style of government and make it their own?”

    Seems to me they tried to: “The Politics of Mexico take place in a framework of a federal presidential representative democratic republic whose government is based on a congressional system…”

    “I believe our Founding Fathers knew (from studying all forms of government throughout the ages) that man is weak and prone to evil if left unchecked. I believe (as John Adams and many other founders) that our style of government requires a moral people.”

    So you say man is prone to evil, but our style of government requires a moral people, ergo, people do not fit the requirements of our style of government. Presumably, this makes it impossible for our government to function properly. I think that, and your 4th paragraph make you a true pessimist.

    As for the exercise, you missed the point. I refer to knowledge, not promotion of exercise. Before government research, we didn’t know that exercise was good for you, so private enterprise would have had no basis to promote it in the first place. We also didn’t believe cigarettes were bad for our health either, along with sulfur dioxide, ozone, DDT, etc., etc.

  112. Rincon says:

    Trump’s biggest mistakes with Coronavirus: Allowing Americans returning from Wuhan to immediately mingle with the general population, disbanding the Pandemic Response Team, downplaying the risks of this disease, and downplaying the benefits of simple procedures to reduce risk such as face masks and the 6 foot separation. He even shook hands with dozens in a crowd long after experts advised against close contact and handshaking. No wonder so many people are careless. They’re following his example.

  113. Athos says:

    And here it’s my thoughts: we’re in this predicament because of Northern Italy’s deluge of death, coupled with our more than slightly flawed models that predicted up to 2.4 million US deaths (although hindsight is definitely 20/20).Here in Nevada we have 3 million population with 155 deaths (0.005%). Try and find how many hospital beds and ICU beds are available in Clark County if you can?! I know it’s political suicide to open up, but if we get that spike that overcrowds our hospitals, couldn’t we just go back to quarantine?

    Rin, you really think it took a government program to teach people exercise is good for you? Or are you going back to the government in Sparta?

    There really is a major divide between left and right and you’ve captured it perfectly, Rin. The left believes human nature is good but when it does bad things it’s from some outside force (poverty, racism, greedy rich, etc) Whereas, the Right believes that man is born into sin and must master his baser nature and strive to do good by accepting a moral code. You don’t have to take my word for it, maybe you’ve heard of this guy? Benjamin Franklin — ‘Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.’

    “Since the foundation of all happiness is thinking rightly, and since correct action is dependent on correct opinion, we cannot be too careful in choosing the value system we allow to govern our thoughts and actions.

    And to know that God governs in the affairs of men, that He hears and answers prayers, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him, is, indeed, a powerful regulator of human conduct.”
    ― Benjamin Franklin, the Art of Virtue: His Formula for Successful Living”

    And one of my favorites: “If religious people are so evil, what would happen if they had no religion?”

    Liberty. Freedom. Self governance. That is the America I want for my children and grandchildren.


    From my old history teacher about Mexico: The president serves only a 6year term then he’s out. The Mexican people called that 6th year the “Year of the Thief”. Obviously Mexico doesn’t have the same rule of law that we have. Or maybe they do, but are not as good as hiding the corruption?

  114. Athos says:

    “Is the goal to make Trump look bad or is the goal to get to the truth, cause there’s 2 sets of answers here” Dan Crenshaw to Bill Maher-interview April 20, 20.

    so Annie, unless that “we” you’re talking about is a bunch of flees in your pocket, you are dead bang wrong about all of “us” and who we blame for American deaths.

  115. Rincon says:

    Anyone know what was the longest thread we’ve had here? This one began March 25.

    Don’t be too sanguine about the low number of cases in Nevada so far. There’s no evidence that the virus stops at state lines. The most likely possibility is that New York experienced a burst of cases all at once, possibly due to the naturally close quarters there, and Nevada’s rate of spread is slower, but the virus will likely continue relentlessly so that eventually, most of us will be exposed.

    It is true that we had some vague notions in the 1950’s that exercise was good for you, but I believe most had no clue as to the magnitude of the benefits. Maybe I just lived in a unique area, but when I was young, people over 50 who exercised regularly and intensely were rare as hen’s teeth. Do you think it’s so common now because we’re just that much more diligent than our forebears or is it just possible that we have learned a lot about exercise since then? If you’re really sure, perhaps you can pull up some sources describing the fountain of knowledge produced by private enterprise on this subject in those days.

    My point was that the difference between us and Mexico is that of past and present leadership – unless you think the people of Mexico are somehow inferior to us Americans.

    I’m sure you saw the Dan Crenshaw interview with Bill Mahr because you’re a regular viewer. Nope, it was predictable that the Conservative propaganda machine would spread that all over. Mahr looked bad, no two ways about it. For example, he let Crenshaw characterize the Democrats as having called Trump a racist because he banned Chinese nationals from flying in during the earlier days of the epidemic. According to Factcheck: “None of the party’s congressional leaders and none of the Democratic candidates running for president have directly criticized that decision, though at least two Democrats have.”

    I do have one huge criticism of his ban though. Although I don’t think it was racist per se, it showed a ridiculous level of unfairness to the Chinese. Other countries allowed Chinese nationals in under one strict condition: They had to be quarantined for 2 weeks after their arrival. Trump wouldn’t allow that, which has a very low risk, but allowed American nationals returning from China to just waltz into daily life without so much as a followup phone call. News flash: The virus doesn’t know your nationality nor does it care. Those Americans were each a thousand times more dangerous than a Chinese national under quarantine, but Mahr was too lame to point that out, among other things.

  116. Rincon says:

    BTW, there may be a clue as to our success compared to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America for that matter. Many colonies of Great Britain did pretty well, ourselves included, but colonies of Spain, without major exception so far as I know, have had far less impressive results. Coincidence?.

  117. Athos says:

    Rinny, you may want to fact check old factcheck. I seem to remember this quote made at a campaign rally after Jan. 31, “This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia, hysterical xenophobia, to uh, and fearmongering to lead the way instead of science.” I believe Joe Biden IS a democrat leader. Maher may have looked bad because he is so filled with hate for the Donald, (and Christians, and conservatives) that he can’t see straight. But he does recognize truth (like saying the US can survive another recession but we can’t survive 4 more years of DJT)

    Virus: Maybe it’s coming our way AFTER it’s done with the greater NYC area, or maybe (hello Sweden!) it’s not nearly as deadly as we were told. I would certainly not put any stock into any of those Modeling geniuses we used. At least Utah is nearby and they didn’t close THEIR Golf courses!

    My father ran a mens physical fitness class that met 3 times a week to do stretching, aerobics, exercises, and running/walking for 90 minutes/session. This was in NE Ohio and he started that class in ’58 or ’59. We always played sports and walked/ran/biked everywhere cause no adult was gonna chauffeur us around. Back then I remember folks in their 50s and 60s were old and getting ready to kick off. Of course, I’m thinking 60s sound young to me, today! (funny thing, eh?)

    As to the Chinese, or more accurately, the CCP. I believe they are NOT our friend, and what happened with this virus has shown the world they CAN NOT be trusted. That belief is going to upset a whole bunch of apple carts but maybe there really is something to MAGA.

    Your last post is puzzling because it echos a deeply held belief of mine. My ancestors were from the British Isles as was a vast majority of our founding fathers. And I do believe that some cultures are better than others. It would appear that you agree that the WASP may be a better culture than Espanol?

  118. Rincon says:

    I checked the quote. It was run in several places at the time. Biden said Trump had, ““record of hysteria, xenophobia, and fear-mongering.”, a far cry from stating that his travel limit was xenophobic, although as I had said, that is a fair characterization, since he banned Chinese nationals, even when properly quarantined but allowed U.S. citizens with a risk several orders of magnitude greater to wander at will. I agree with Factcheck on this one.

    I agree that China is not our friend, but they certainly couldn’t have hidden the fact that they had a very stringent lockdown and have since reopened for business. Our satellites can show us the traffic volumes for the time in question. It would also have been difficult to hide mass burials, etc., had they experienced a huge death rate. Don’t forget, there are likely lots of Americans that are still there.

    BTW, the Economist ran an article claiming that China is making hay out of the pandemic. Their society seems to have quickly shaken off the contagion, and is exporting PPE to other countries, while we can’t meet our own needs 3-4 months after our first case. They are also scoring points with other countries by sending, aid and medical experts, along with the PPE, while we stand accused of trying to intercept PPE bound for other countries. A recent poll of Italians showed more of them wanted China for an ally than the U.S. My, how things have changed.

    We produced 264 airplanes every day in 1944, but we just can’t seem to be able to make enough face masks today.

    But who needs to look at China? South Korea, Germany, Taiwan, Australia, etc.,have much better numbers than us, and they had far less economic disruption than we did. It’s the difference between competence and incompetence.

    I think the major difference between English colonies and those of Spain is that England colonized, while Spain looted. And much of that was rooted in the cultural norms of the two countries at the time.

    Your dad sounds pretty impressive. I suspect he was somewhat exceptional.

  119. Athos says:

    Sticking with factcheck, eh? Oh well, all I can do is give you the quote and watch you twist like a pretzel. But here’s another Democrat leaders take (from a 1/31/20 article in the Hill)”Pelosi: Trump’s expanded travel ban is ‘outrageous, un-American’ and threatens ‘rule of law'”. I believe she has some sway with the Democrats in Congress, eh?

    I haven’t heard of PPE shortages. Couple of weeks ago some nurses in NYC were clowning around with trash bags putting out some fake news, but ground zero (NYC) never ran out of ventilators, ICU beds or hospital beds, did they?

    And I notice you didn’t include the left’s darling of socialized medicine, Sweden in your countries to look at, did you?

    Thank you for the compliment about my dad. He was born 1922, survived the depression, fought in Europe during WW2, came back home to his factory based town (surrounded by farms), got married and raised a family of 6. Compared to his childhood, we were children of privilege. Played outdoors summer and winter, got fed regularly, and had a whole bunch of fellow boomers to play with. No cell phones, no computers, no cable tv, no wasted food (starving kids in China), gas was cheap, cars were easy to work on, boy scouts were still brave trustworthy and reverent. Scouting promoted fitness, as did the YMCA, as did the various Church leagues and Hot Stove baseball.

    LBJ’s Welfare plantation didn’t start up till 1965 or 66 and it took a while to get up to the leviathan it is today. Before that, you were on your own so you better make good choices. But when you didn’t make those good choices (as we all fell into) you had to face the consequences. “Man up”, as it were.

    That world, and the values placed on American society, are unrecognizable today. And some would argue unbelievable.

  120. Rincon says:

    Congrats, Athos. This thread has passed the one month mark. Amazing how being locked in one’s home inspires us to write.

    I’ll let you know what I find on the mask situation. We have been unable to purchase N 95 masks for our animal hospital since February, but I also found KN95 masks online in limited quantities, which are similar to N95’s. Counterfeit masks have been a problem, so “availability” can be hard to determine. Googling N95 mask shortage though, I find a host of articles reporting a shortage. I believe it may boil down to the possibility that hospitals have been forced to reuse these masks due to a lack of adequate supply, but only a small number may have actually run out. The FDA says that some distributors allocated their supply (this has to mean rationing) based on previous demand rather than anticipated need, implying that some indeed simply weren’t shipped enough masks.

    If Factcheck completely lies about almost anything, their reputation goes up in smoke. You, not so much, so with that in mind, here’s what Factcheck says about your Pelosi quote: “President Donald Trump instituted travel restrictions on five Muslim majority countries during his first year in office. This year, on Jan. 31, he added more countries to the list.
    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who has opposed that policy from the start, took to Twitter to criticize the expansion, calling it an “un-American travel ban.”
    Now, two months later, a video that’s been viewed more than 2 million times on Facebook and YouTube falsely claims that her tweet was about Trump’s decision on the same day to restrict travelers coming from China in an effort to slow the spread of the novel coronavirus.

    While Trump banned travel from China for Chinese nationals on January 31, he also banned travelers from Nigeria and 5 other African nations at that time, so I need a source which specifies the target of Pelosi’s words. She could easily have been referring to the African nations, or to both Africa and China.

    Glad you had such a good childhood. Mine was great as well, for many of the same reasons. According to a paper from the University of New Mexico, prior to the 1960’s, physical fitness was promoted primarily for younger people because of the needs of the armed forces.

  121. Athos says:

    Well, like I chronicled yesterday, Rin, we had a strong Boy Scout influence in my town, as well as Christian denominations with gymnasiums. Many boys recognized the best way out of our town (and upward mobility) was through sports.

    As to Pelousy’s quote, it was from the Hill, and definitely fit the Orange Man Bad theme. And if you were to stop and think about it, is it such a stretch, given every travel ban Trump has tried to enact, and the vitriol that followed, that Pelousy, Biden and just about any Democrat, would accuse Trump of Xenophobia?

    There are a host of high level politicians that are deeply invested in China. Would you agree with that statement? Power and corruption. Seems like there are too few virtuous men>

  122. Rincon says:

    Seems to me that you derided the estimates of “up to 2.4 million” deaths. The 2.4 million was clearly labeled a worst case scenario. Had we trusted China, we would have considered that to be on the outside. Later estimates were 100-250,000, which is still a huge number of dead bodies. That seems likely now that we’re past 50,000 deaths with definitely less than 50% of our people exposed to date.

  123. Rincon says:

    I agree that many politicians probably have financial ties with China, which would be a clear conflict of interest, but I am surprised to hear it from you, since you seem to look the other way when one particular politician has many ties to Russia, especially when this politician essentially gave them Crimea, part of Ukraine, Syria, and Turkey. These may not have all been bad decisions, but with the conflicts of interest, one must suspect.

  124. Athos says:

    Russia took Crimea in Feb/2014. I wouldn’t say Barry O “gave” it to them, but maybe you know more than I do. President Erdogan of Turkey first the scene in the Bush years (as Prime Minister) and took over as President in 2014. And I agree he’s a piece of work sending thousand of refugees into Europe. Hunter Biden got the hook-up with Burisma in 2014. You know, if I didn’t know any better, 2014 was a hell of a year for the bad guys, wasn’t it? I wonder how the Clinton Foundation did? And Jeffry Epstein was still alive and Harvey Weinstein was still cranking out movies.

    Corrupt politicians are almost a given. We need some high profile people to do a perp walk. Our very own Harry Greid retired with over $10+million after 49 years of public service. (1968 – 2017) but the Senate is a target rich environment for big bucks going to plum positions.

    How ’bout that, eh?

    As to the corona virus: Fear is ripe in our city. There are people screaming about dying if we open up the city. Citing northern Japan and Singapore as two that opened too early, they see only black death. And very little will calm them down. Some are calling for the casinos to open the end of 2021! “How many deaths do you justify to save 1 job!” they cry in righteous indignation. Kind of reminds me of all you that suffer from TDS!

    Hopefully, Georgia will be a success over the next 2 weeks and may all the testing for antibodies in NYC will show that this virus is no where near fatal as predicted. It’s funny how we’ve had 5.2million people tested, and 48000 deaths with almost half of the deaths in NYC alone. And the hospitals didn’t overflow in NYC. And these governors are LOVING this power.

  125. Rincon says:

    Thank you for the correction about Crimea! Obama was indeed the one that twiddled his thumbs while Russia invaded another sovereign state. I always learn something from these discussions, and today, you corrected a major misconception for me. Of course, what I said about Ukraine, etc. still applies. BTW, I also agree that Obama had a wimpy foreign policy.

    As for Hunter Biden, I agree that the circumstances suggest nepotism. What amazes me is that you don’t see any in the Trump Administration, like for example, his son in law, whose main qualification is that he’s a mediocre real estate investor, or Sec. of Ed. Betsy DeVos, whose only qualification for her office is that she’s a big time donor. The list goes on and on, but I won’t bore you.

    So yes, corrupt politicians are almost a given. Why are they corrupt? Because we support them in every way if they’re on our team. As a matter of fact, most Americans support their team itself, no matter how egregious the sins. This is why China’s model may indeed beat us eventually. Although they also have a corrupt leadership, it appears to be consistently competent in terms of major results and doesn’t change every 4 years. The strength of America used to lie in the morality of its people. That morality has sadly degraded, and one symptom of that is that we rabidly support leaders with no ethical compass and, just like so many sports fans, only see the fouls committed by the other team.

    We agree mostly on Corona. Although some public distancing, masks, etc. are worthwhile, shutting down big chunks of the economy is likely counterproductive, especially if we don’t bother to enforce proper procedure such as wearing masks when close to others.

  126. Athos says:

    I think there is something inherent in us Americans that bristle at the thought of being told what we can and can’t do by some elected figurehead. And it doesn’t matter if he’s our guy or not. That’s also why I believe China will never be THE superpower in the world. Because people are yearning to be free. (we’ve just forgotten to accept the consequences of our actions, haven’t we?)

  127. Steve says:

    Masks are for medical professionals! Do not use any medial grade masks in any way other than a pure medical procedure, ever. Especially during “these uncertain times”.
    The ONLY acceptable public use is facial coverings….if anyone is using any medical device in public they should be vilified for killing doctors and nurses and hospital janitors!

    Stop being selfish…hand over all your medical grade equipment to those who really need it…and, incidentally, who know how to USE it!

    Arrgh…people who insist on wearing the same set of nitrile gloves for a week at a time disgust me.

  128. Athos says:

    Steve, are you OK? Gently put the syringe down now……..

  129. Steve says:

    Glove wearer the other day. Poking at her phone. Phone won’t respond because gloves prevent capacitive coupling needed for touch screens to work. So, she remove the glove…using her teeth. Holding it in her teeth by the fingertip.
    Worse, her gloves were visibly dirty.
    If you are going to use medical PPE, use it properly or don’t use it at all.

    Fouci says Remdesivir is the standard for care of COVID-19 infected patients. Good.
    Now, open all the local business and let our people move again.
    Big resorts need to prep and so do all their employees, those should open in a month.

  130. Rincon says:

    Good idea Steve. All we need are some N95 masks. Oops, maybe some other time says Google shopping, as does Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Ace Hardware, etc. There are some available from no name Web sites, but I wouldn’t bet on them. Give them time though. It’s only been 3 months. Maybe us peons will be able to get them in May. Of course, that’s what we were hoping about April during March.

    Not enough Covid 19 tests, either, but hey, do you think we live in South Korea or something?

  131. Steve says:

    Slowing the spread does not prevent the spread.
    All it does is keep from overwhelming the hospitals.
    That was the stated goal when this began.
    That goal has been achieved.
    Now the goal has been “modified” to mean when a vaccine is ready.
    In other words this “lifestyle” could be years.

    The Swiss have determined children under the age of 10 don’t contract the virus and cannot transmit the virus.
    Open the elementary schools.
    Open business, let people get out and move. Wynn has partnered with UMC to test all their employees at no cost to the employee. We have the tests. Monitor with testing and temperature.
    Remdesivir proven to shorten recovery and reduce mortality. Protect those we all know to be vulnerable and the rest build antibodies.

    Stop the shut down, open local business first, open big resorts after several weeks prove it under control.

  132. Steve says:

    And now WHO lauds Sweden for the way they handled things COVID-19…to which I say “Who the F is lying to all of us?!”

  133. Rincon says:

    1) What an interesting article! That might make this virus completely unique. I know of no other virus that can be fatal to adults and not infect children. And yes, if the evidence is reasonably strong, then schools should be opened for that age group.

    2) It seems as if you’re saying that Sweden succeeded by doing nothing. Is that the case? From your article: “I think there’s a perception out that Sweden has not put in control measures and just has allowed the disease to spread,” Ryan told reporters. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”
    And Sweden’s death rate isn’t as low as the Post article would have you believe: While Sweden has lost 22 people per 100,000 so far, its neighbors have done better. Denmark, a country with a much higher population density, has only lost 7; Norway 4, and Finland 4.
    But Sweden has been far more successful than us, as have South Korea and Taiwan, neither of which had a lockdown either – and there are many others
    Sweden has a population that trusts its government and likely adheres to proper procedures such as distancing and wearing masks in public. In Illinois, on the other hand, we have a big clusterfarkle: Restaurants are closed, hairdressers can’t work, even with proper protection, but the local building supply stores are as busy as ever, and only about half of the customers wear masks, and many ignore distancing. So far as I can tell, these people are mostly political conservatives, who are loathe to do what the government says. They have insured a lack of success.

    3) We agree though, that the point of all these measures is only to slow down the onrush of the virus. If we come up with a good treatment (remdesivir looks promising, unlike hydroquinolone), then tens or hundreds of thousands might be saved in this country alone. Risking our economy as much as we have though, I believe, was ill advised.

    4) I’m with you in that lockdowns are a melodramatic and clumsy approach which, by themselves, may do less than well enforced social protocols, and certainly cannot be maintained for the long periods needed for them to be useful.

    Nevertheless, I don’t think anybody of major significance is lying to us, (except for our President, of course 🙂 Do you know of evidence that suggests otherwise?

  134. Athos says:

    Trump is President now. The Liar has been out of office for 3years, 3months, 8days, 18hours, 3minutes, and 46secs. But who’s counting?

    If the Hospitals feel they can handle it, end this tyranny and give us back our freedoms.

  135. Steve says:

    The liars are the lock down lovers.

  136. Sarah Shaw says:

    Whether I get the Coronavirus or not, I WON’T be allowing these medications to be administered to my body!!!

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