Elect representatives, not leaders

A recent AP story lede states: “SALEM, Ore. (AP) — As complaints about elections, many of them unfounded, pile up around the country, investigators tasked with dealing with them find themselves on the front line of defending the integrity of America’s system for choosing local, state and national leaders.”

Pardon my nitpicking, but we should not be electing leaders, we should be electing representatives to carry out our wishes, directions and needs, not dictate what we will get. That may be the way it works out too often, but that’s not what elections should be about.

A leader is defined as: the person who leads or commands a group, organization or country.

Representatives are held accountable by citizens who judge whether that person is acting in their best interest and sanction the representative accordingly, such as by electing someone else, which should happen frequently Tuesday.

65 comments on “Elect representatives, not leaders

  1. Bill says:

    I get your point Thomas, but slightly disagree. I want elected officials to not only be representatives but leaders as well. We can’t have them charging off yelling “follow me” nor should we have elect political automatons that base their actions on the latest poll.
    Above all, I want to see persons that are mindful of the public trust that thett they seek from the electors. I want a balance between poll watchers that blow in the wind of public opinion and the idealogues whose rigidity of mind permits no intruding thought of balance or reason.
    The bigger problem these days is getting qualified persons to run for political office who view political office as an avocation rather than a vocation. Most political offices do not pay enough to be a vocation but they do involve he exercise of power which can lead to irresistible temptations. As somewhat of an idealist, I hope for these things but as a realist, I know that they are just goals.

  2. Anonymous says:

    I find most folks on the right desire in politicians that which they believe they are not getting from politicians of the more leftist persuasion.

  3. Anonymous says:

    And of course, what folks on the right wants shifts depending on exactly what politicians of the more leftist persuasion are given them; i.e. if their wishes are being represented (like say voting for social security programs which are universally popular) then they will claim that they really wanted to be led, and if they’re being led, say by a politician advocating this country prepare for war against Germany pre-WWII, then they will claim what they really want is to be represented.

  4. Athos says:

    Our society is paying for the “every child wins a trophy” ideology. No one wants to be held accountable for their actions. Everyone wants free stuff (and have someone else pay for it).
    Our town (Las Vegas) is built on the “something for nothing” free money delusion. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Nor is Life suppose to be “fair” or “equitable”. So why do so many people fall for this can of malarkey? Wishful thinking? Go along to get along? People come to town and play our games and lose their money but brag about the free stuff they got from their host, or the free cocktail (or buffet) they got for playing the Vegas game..

    So I shouldn’t be too surprised that people vote for liars, thieves and venal house plants to run our government. But the last two years has been a different story, hasn’t it? Now these incompetent crooks want to punish us with high costs of living, erase our southern border and mutilate our children. But don’t question that because it’s just not true! What you see with your own eyes, and have experienced over the past 2 years is not so! Tradition, history and reality are to be erased and a new dictate is now to be!

    “What is Gaslighting and where does the term come from? Gaslighting is when someone manipulates you into questioning your mental health and reality.”

    This is the perfect definition (for me) of what is going on in today’s world. John Fetterman (and for that matter, Joe Biden) is obviously mentally impaired. But not if you listen to the main stream media. Telling anyone (let alone a child) that if you are a boy and you want to become a girl, you can…. is an evil destructive lie. So why are doctors on board with this? Is is just about the money? Is the end goal the abolition of the family unit?

    Allowing unfettered access thru our southern border will lead to the destruction of our nation, but is that goal of these politicians?

    Is that why so many reviled the term MAGA? They don’t want America to be a great country?

  5. Athos says:

    Democrat politicians cannot run on their record, can they? What are they gonna say? We spent too much money and now prices are raising faster than anytime over the last 40 years? We embarrassed the USA by the disastrous pull out of Afghanistan (that you all saw with your own eyes ….. but we are now claiming it was a success!)? That the lockdowns of the schools during covid was terribly destructive to our children but just proclaim amnesty and let us keep running the show?

    Give me a man who tells us the truth (“YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH” Jack Nicholson”) and keeps what has worked SUCCESSFULLY for 200 our the last 250 years, and that’s the man who has my vote. (kind of like Giorgia Meloni!! – of Italy)

    Elections are about keeping or firing the candidates that run our government. This current crop has got to go. I love Kari Lake’s line about “reality deniers living on Planet Crazy!” Perfectly describes the current crop of politicians in power.

    And I want off this nutty merry-go-round!

  6. Bill says:

    Good going Athos. I particularly liked “venal house plants”. With your permission I may use it in the future.
    I have been fascinated by what is being said as we get closer to what looks like a pretty red election. All of a sudden, the Dems and some of the media are setting up a scenario for claiming that these elections will not be real and will have been stolen in some manner or at least, declared “illegitimate”. Isn’t that what Hillary said about Trump’s election. I see that she has already come out and declared that the 2024 election might be stolen and others in the media are saying that misinformation, particularly to Latinos and Blacks may skew the results. And finally, evry time I read that there was no fraud in the 2020 election as to Trump, I would hope that the media would say the same about Stacey Abrams claims of defeat and also clean up their record on the accuracy of Georgia’s election laws.

  7. Athos says:

    We are living in “interesting” times, aren’t we Bill? I’ve been waiting for the Dem’s to pivot, and start lying about their record, or start promising real time solutions (like Fetterwoman stating “I’m for fracking” during his debate) instead of this “democracy is at stake” screed.

    If they DO get shellacked (Sisledick is on the top of my “YOU’RE FIRED!” list) I really hope they sit down and start listening to the American people. And STOP listening to these nut jobs whose ideology is to destroy American Traditions that are rooted in principles that span thousands of years. It’s definitely a 1st world problem when you try to redefine “what is a woman”. (Do we have to force mandatory viewing of the movie “Kindergarten Cop”?)

    And for the record, Joe Biden being described as a “venal house plant” should be credited to Andrew Klavan. He’s the one that I first heard using that term. To the best of my knowledge, the term isn’t copy-writed (Tom, is that a term?) and I’m in the dark as to any intellectual property law violations.

    It’s well worth your time listening to his weekly podcast.

  8. Yes, but, as you probably know, it is spelled copyrighted.

  9. Athos says:

    Always the editor! (Thanks, Tom)

  10. Bill says:

    Well, if it is copyrighted I’ll have to find some thing other descriptive term even though I don’t think I would be sued if I used “venal houseplant”. . How about “affable liar”?

  11. He’s not that affable.

  12. Bill says:

    Sorry, my spelling again. I meant to say ‘ ineffable liar’.

  13. Athos says:

    Not a bad habit to have!

  14. Athos says:

    Inveterate, that is…..and I would have used “an f’ing liar”!

  15. Bill says:

    ineffable means too great or extreme to be described in words. Inveterate is also a good characterization given his history it does appear in that his lying is is a habit that has existed so long that it will not change.

  16. Anonymous says:

    The tales the right wing tell themselves man.


    If Joe Biden is an inveterate liar, given his history, what sort of characterization to give to the Donald Trump I wonder?

    Evil I think may best describe it.

  17. Bill says:

    what evil? State some objective facts to support your statement.
    How would I describe him? To me, he is an irritating, aggressive New York businessman and entrepreneur whose personality is irritating but who is at heart a believer in our Country and has an ability to get things done.
    In my opinion, he is often guilty of hyperbole but unlike Biden he seldom seems to have engaged in many objectively provable lies.
    I like the fact that he is someone who was wealthy before he went into politics and not someone who became wealthy because of politics.
    He and his family are one of he most extensively investigated persons in the World and to date, there has been no criminal activity found although criminal activiy was found by tagents of the U. S. Goverment in falsifying materials against him.
    When left office the USA workers were fully employed, inflation was low, the USA was energy independent and energy prices were low, the wages for workers were increasin and greater than the rate of inflation, the US was not losing military personnel in Afghanistan and we were getting ready for an orderly withdrawal from Adfghanistan, our Nation’s longest war. Russia had not invaded the Ukraine and China and North Korea were constrained.

    Then we elected the great Uniter Biden. Have we been better off under Biden than we were under Trump?

    As to Biden’s ineffable, inveterate and chronic lying, even he NY Times, finally acknowledged his record although soft pedaling as the media always does. The Times noted Biden has lied about being “raised in the Puerto Rican community at home,” his academic record, his life story, being arrested when protesting civil rights, being arrested in South Africa, pinning a Silver Star on a Navy captain and even the timeline when he rode on Amtrak to visit his sick mother, among other things. He’s told other unbelievable stories that the Times failed to mention, such as the claim he confronted a gang leader named “Corn Pop” in the 1960s which never happened and I think he has even claimed to have been a University Professor . His lies are objectively provable.
    Hope that answers your question.

  18. Anonymous says:

    “How would I describe him? To me, he is an irritating, aggressive New York businessman and entrepreneur whose personality is irritating but who is at heart a believer in our Country and has an ability to get things done.”

    Not a single mention of how you would characterize his propensity to lie. Which is what I requested after all I mean, you describe the current president as an “inveterate liar” “given his history”

    give my your best adjective to describe the last president’s practice of lying.

  19. Anonymous says:

    And I didn’t even get to the rest of this because I am frankly so stunned that anyone would say anything positive about the last president but “hyperbole” from a guy who REDREW a map from the National Weather Service, went on national television with it, and claimed that a hurricane was headed to a state that it wasn’t headed to all for political purposes and that constitutes some weird “not lie” but rather hyperbole? Or that this evil evil creature born of a jackal spent the better part of his last year in office telling the entire world that the pandemic was a hoax, or that it was one guy, or that he had it totally under control, AND THEN who came out and ADMITTED that all these things were lies but that “he didn’t want to create any hysteria” all from a guy who spent YEARS trying to scare America with tales of the hoards of invaders from the south streaming over the border to jump and terrorize every red blooded American in sight. That he never took any documents from the White House, and that if he did (hard not to say that the first statement of material fact isn’t a lie when he immediately follows it up with a second statement which directly contradicts the first but hey just probably hyperbole right) that even if did take them (in front of witnesses who describe the conversations about whether he should take them and that he should give them back to which he responded “no they’re mine” even while the documents were stamped Top Secret. I mean, do you stamp your own documents that way Bill cause I don’t) Along with the “lessor” lies, more than 20,000 of them by my last understanding WHILE HE WAS IN OFFICE. Sure, 4 years is a long time and president, some of them, say a lot of stuff but how do you cram 20,000 lies into 4 years and have people, like yourself, suggest that what they’ve “seen” from this animal is mere “hyperbole”?

    Oh well…inveterate…geez

  20. Anonymous says:

    Again, my apologies because I just don’t seem to be able to get to the end of what you’re saying with needing to respond but claiming that “no criminal activity was found” is like claiming that the the US never landed on the moon because “what proof is there”.

    Trump is a festering boil of crimes, all FOUND throughout his entire life INCLUDING immediately before, during, and now after he was forced from the office nearly at gun point (there’s some hyperbole for you Bill but not to far from the truth) whether he was been CONVICTED in a criminal court or not does not change whether criminal activity has been found at least in general understanding of that word. I mean, if I went to Trump casino tomorrow and starting throwing rocks at the windows and breaking the glass or stole a few chips from the cage, and was arrested, the general understanding of most people, even before I got to some cops car, would be that criminal activity had taken place and was “found” on the scene.

    Some people will just say anything to cover for a man who mocks all of them the way he mocked all Americans before during and after he took office.

  21. Anonymous says:

    This will be my last entry, even though I still haven’t reached the end of what you wrote here Bill.

    Really Bill?

    “When left office the USA workers were fully employed, inflation was low, the USA was energy independent and energy prices were low, the wages for workers were increasin and greater than the rate of inflation, the US was not losing military personnel in Afghanistan and we were getting ready for an orderly withdrawal from Adfghanistan, our Nation’s longest war. Russia had not invaded the Ukraine and China and North Korea were constrained.”

    Do you realize that Trump is the first president since Herbert Hoover to leave office with fewer Americans employed than when he came to office? Well it is true. So that first statement is…inaccurate.

    It follows of course, given that Trump ruled over a country that LOST jobs while he was in office (and before you say it, let me respond by saying that EVERY president has faced crisis while in office that included possibly wars, or oil embargos, or terrorist actions, or bank failures, or housing crisis, or OPEC formations, that the individual president was not responsible for in any way and yet ALL of them, since Hoover at least, left office with MORE Americans working than were working when he got to office. Except for the last one and it must be said that while Trump probably didn’t cause the pandemic, he was responsible for the failure of this country to respond to it adequately which means that some of the economic and personal impacts can be appropriately laid at his feet. No matter what he says)

    Low inflation? Sure, when you are at least partially responsible for costing the country millions and millions of jobs, and people couldn’t spend money even if they wanted to, businesses going out of business, yeah, low inflation would be the result although I doubt he wants much credit for this if he gets the blame for being the cause.

    I’m now done

  22. Athos says:

    Chill out, anny. We get it. You suffer from SEVERE Trump Derangement Syndrome.

    Unfortunately, there is no way you can go back and review all your statements, putting them in context, and seeing that Trump’s accomplishments far outweighed Trumps abrasive personality.

    You didn’t watch “The Apprentice” did you?

    And it would be easy to point out that Brandon is the current President and you have nothing to say about his demented lies. (Bill listed a few) Not to mention the laptop, and “10% to the big guy” allegations that will never be looked at by the MSM (in the bag for the leftist ideology – and that ideology is to destroy American Traditions that actually built this country into the great Nation it once was – prior to Brandon)

    Don’t let your overblown hatred for 45, lead you to destroy our civilization. God, Family, Nation. Repeat after me. God, Family, Nation.

  23. Bill says:

    The fact remains that Biden is demonstratively a teller of untruths and the validity of that statement can be shown objectively rather than subjectively. It is a sad fact and I wish, for him and our Nation that it was not so. I don’t particularly like either
    Trump or Biden but I do not hate either one.
    :A man who lives, not by what he loves but what he hates, is a sick man. “– Archibald MacLeish

  24. Anonymous says:

    A man who worships evil, or pretends Trump isn’t, deserves what he gets but it would be best for the rest of us if he were the only one to get it.

  25. Bill says:

    So, according to you, Trump is evil and in your words, he deserves a bad fate
    or punishment of some sort. Whatever it is, it will be “deserved”.

    Since I have said some positive things about Trump. I too , according to you, am “evil”. By being “evil”, I seemingly deserve whatever punishment you or your kind would or could impose on me and like Trump, it would be “deserved”.
    You are arguing that anyone who voted for or supported or now supports Trump, is, again, inyour words, also “evil”.
    You, like the great Uniter espouse the same line of condemnation taken against half of the voting population of the United States (73.6 million) who voted for Trump in the last election, all labelled by the Great Uniter, as “Semi-Fascists”.

    Having made your condemnations on moral grounds, your pronouncement and call for punishment sounds a great deal like some religious canonical condemnation of the Spanish Inquisition or the pronouncement of dome tyrant that a particular segment of society is “evil” and therefore deserves whatever they get. Perhaps we “evil” persons should be required to wear some identifying mark such as a yellow star that is visible for many of the evil are church going, nation loving, veterans, family men and women who just want to provide for their families and live in peace and safety. Strangely, I do not now nor have I ever thought of myself as : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked nor to my knowledge I am not of a bad character.” All of these terms define your label of “evil.”
    I never knew it was possible to judge one’s character so easily and that public service and military service, family service and responsible citizenship means nothing. I am sure that the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. would have beden shocked to find that someone, like yourself, has found a definitive method of assessing the content of a person’s character.

  26. Anonymous says:

    The things you say Bill I’m franking shocked.

    Never, ever, did I state that you were evil. What I said was that “anyone who pretends Trump isn’t (evil) deserves what he gets.

    Are you pretending Trump isn’t evil? I guess part of the problem here is “a failure to communicate” according to the old movie line.

    To me, every action taken by a man who cares only about himself (Trump) MUST be evil because, in my very humble opinion we are all our brothers keepers and those who act solely for themselves, as Trump does in EVERY case, must be evil.

    Let’s take the just the most recent example of this baboon acting in a way to destroy what this country has built.

    Without evidence, with only the intent to destroy, this creature is suggesting that the vote in Clark County is CORRUPT, because of a possibility that one of his minions might lose.

    You’re an intelligent man Bill, you must realize that our system of elections, and in truth, our entire system of government is built on the trust the citizens have in our government and it is a fragile thing particularly today. Pull out even one important block and the whole lot can tumble down. Those with power, as Trump unfortunately has, SHOULD be particularly aware of this, and cautious of the words they use lest their followers act on those loose words but Trump completely disregards (but not really because again, he is EVIL and acts with intention to destroy or simply to protect HIMSELF without regard to anyone else) the impact of his words.

    It is not beyond the realm to imagine that the Democratic candidate for Senate prevails in Nevada without any fraud or corruption but if that happens, are you confident that Trumps followers or at least some of them won’t act in a criminal way against election officials or even officeholders because of what he has said about there being “corrupt” elections here in Clark County? If that happens, will you excuse him as so many excused him from blame for the events of January 6th?

    I say Trump is evil because his actions, and nearly all of them, are based on self. Himself. And THAT, my friend, in my humble opinion, is evil.

  27. Athos says:

    Wow, anny. Where to start? “I say Trump is evil because his actions, and nearly all of them, are based on self. Himself. And THAT, my friend, in my humble opinion, is evil.” I hate to break this to ya, but “all actions based on self” is good descriptor of “all of humanity”. We all act on self interest. And yes, you are calling all those that support MAGA, evil. Your righteous anger is misplaced, anny. Trump didn’t unleash the Wuhan flu. He DID turn our government over to that incompetent bureaucrat Fauci, and for that action, he was terribly wrong (which we all payed the price by electing Brandon).

    That’s why belief in God (and the redemptive powers of his son, Jesus) is so important. If this is only about the “self” then all bets are off, the fittest of the species is the winner, and acts of kindness are stupid. America was founded on a higher purpose and our first President set a standard that carried us thru for almost 50 years.

    I don’t know if you read the RJ (Nevada’s biggest paper) but there is an opinion piece in section B that addresses voter integrity in Nevada Elections and Clark county in particular. It’s by Victor Joecks:

    It’s fortunate that we are located next to Arizona because without Maricopa county (AZ) WE would be the laughingstock of election competence. Our legislature needs to get rid of the automatic mail in ballots to all registered voters. Stop the appearance of the cheat.

  28. Athos says:

    Just to steal a bon mot from a twitter feed: “My favorite part of the Trump presidency is when he didn’t destroy the economy in his first 2 years!”

    “I’m ……John……Fetterwoman!”

  29. Bill says:

    Athos, you again have made a small error. I would argue that it did not take a full 2 years for Biden and his policies to put our Country in the tank.

  30. Bill says:

    I’m sorry, I thought that you considered me evil if not by reference, by implication.
    Since you have now said that you didn’t call me evil, I hope you now feel that I m not in fact evil and that in fact I may well be virtuous, honest and perhaps even a moral person. If you are now thinking more kindly of me, I thank you. I don’t know if you are a religious person of a Judeo/Christian persuasion but to think of me kindly would be in line with your faith. Leviticus 19:18.

    As to your “what if” scenario that you have imagined, I do not have a mind that tends toward conjuring paranoid scenarios of “what if” but rather I have a tendency to wait until something has actually happened, then verifying it and then reacting. On this Armed Forces Day, it is fitting that I tell you that I earned in the military after many years of active duty. And on this day, to all of you who have served, a
    thank you and for those of you who have supported those women and men, God Bless You.

  31. Rincon says:

    I think the whole evil question is too broad, but I certainly cannot respect a man who actively tried to destroy the confidence of our citizens in the integrity of the vote, while knowing that he had no significant evidence to offer.

    Amazing how our morals have changed in only a few decades. Gary Hart’s candidacy was toast when he was caught cheating on his wife. John Kerry’s was destroyed when he was accused of lying about his military record. And they said, “Lock her up” about Hillary, but a few years later, they avidly support a President who appears to have done the same or worse.

  32. Athos says:

    Score one for the Rinman! Personally, I would gladly go back to 1988 for 3 reasons:
    a) our country had a greater moral compass guiding us (imagine a DEMOCRAT dropping out of a race for cheating on his wife…during the race! We can’t get the democrats to drop out of a race even if they die –see Tony DeLuca PA democrat– or have a stroke and talk like “Sling Blade”–Fetterwoman)
    b)think of all the money I could make on the stock market, or sports betting! and
    c) I’d be 34 years younger!!

    Anny just gave Bill the perfect example of “gaslighting” with his “Never, ever, did I state that you were evil.” And then immediately states the bogus question “Are you pretending Trump isn’t evil?” Pure gaslighting. Why would Bill risk the displeasure of a screeching Anny-mouse by asking just how is it that Trump is evil? The casino example goes contrary to our laws of presumption of innocence, but that point has already come and gone. As did the accuracy but not the nuance of stating Trump left office blah blah blah lower than Herbert Hoover when the only reason was the forced locked downs by the Gov in general and Fauci in particular. Trump wanted us open, remember, fellas? And certain governors kept their states open DESPITE the wailing and gnashing of teeth of dem’s and their mouthpiece (the MSM). How did DeSantis and Kemp do in their re-election bid? Our guy, Sizzleout LOST Nevada, primarily from his inept and deadly Covid policies – and an insurmountable number of us, voted appropriately!!

    Sorry, Anny, and Rinman. Trump represented the anti-swamp and the Swamp definitely won for now. As to PROOF that the election was stolen…check out Maricopa County, and my very own state of Nevada for a system that gives every appearance of chicanery. When you mail out 1.8 million ballots and slightly under 1 million votes will be tallied in Nevada, it would be nice to think all 1.8 million would be true to the “honor system”.

    But that’s not realistic, is it? I’m not sure how realistic that was in 1988, either.

    Here’s a casino story for you, Anny. When a player starts winning big, consistently, and the house can’t figure out HOW he’s cheating, they still ask him to leave (86 ’em). Because in Las Vegas, the odds favor the house, and the house ALWAYS wins. So we don’t need no stinking proof! Statistics are real, and anomalies are very, Neo, rare.

  33. Athos says:

    As to quality of candidates and the repudiation of “election deniers” or more accurately, people that would like proof that the election was on the up and up,
    Pennsylvania elected a brain dead socialist stroke victim AND a dead man (both democrats). What kind of candidate can Republicans run that people, who have a history of booing and throwing rocks at Santa Claus, will vote for?

  34. Rincon says:

    34 years younger? If you figure out a way to go back, let me know!

    I think rare cheating is possible the way you describe the mail-in ballots in Maricopa County, but any significant would-be cheater would have to find a way to get his hands on large numbers of ballots mailed to people who wouldn’t be voting AND he would have to acquire a sample of each signature matching each ballot. Not an easy task. The only people who might allow their ballot to be used for cheating would likely be those who are extreme on one side or the other, in which case, they would want to vote and mail the ballot for themselves anyway. Bribing people is possible, but pretty hazardous for any large number of votes – and how do you find those who can be bribed? Put an ad on Facebook? And the reward is highly uncertain unless a truly huge number of ballots are falsified or the margin for victory is razor thin. Even in those cases, investigation and/or recounts become very likely increasing the chances of being caught. This might explain why Republicans have failed miserably to find evidence of cheating. It’s harder than it looks to the casual conspiracy theorist.

  35. Athos says:

    Culinary Union has 60,000 members with families, relatives, fellow immigrants (green cards and other) that would make voting in mass mail-in ballots favoring democrat candidates very possible. Senior centers (assisted living) even dead people that were sent a mail in ballot (1.8 million mailed, less than 1 million voted) could be “cured” and tallied. And to their credit, the democrats have this down pat!

    Remember, we aren’t talking about Florida, or Ohio. Clark county (home of Las Vegas) is run by democrat elected and appointed officials (some say the Harry “Pinky” Reid democrat machine) and they don’t like losing their power. Which is why I say Sizzleout lost the Governor’s race because of his heavy fisted rule for Covid.

    Even WITH the Culinary Union and the Teachers union endorsing Sizzleout (after all, he IS a democrat, so what else are they gonna do??) his lose shows the pent up anger of enough people that even the mail in ballots couldn’t save him.

  36. […] Elect representatives, not leaders Nov Pardon my nitpicking, but we should not be electing leaders, we should be electing representatives to carry out our wishes, directions and needs, not dictate what we will get. That may be the way it works out too often, but that’s not what elections should be about. […]

  37. Rincon says:

    Your point about nursing homes is well taken, but there are lots of employees, many who are Republican, in each home. It’s hard to believe that that Democrats could get away with stealing thousands of ballots from residents without raising suspicions of fellow workers. Nevertheless, I think your suggestion of making voters request mail in ballots before the election would go a long way towards minimizing the danger.

  38. Bill says:

    Ballot harvesting occurs. and sometimes it occurs with the willing consent of qualified voters who willingly turn over their ballots to others to mark or unknowing voters who never receive their ballots in the first instance. I get ab bit upset wen I hear the talking heads blather about an election that there was “no evidence of wide spread fraud” in the election. There should be no fraud nor the hint of fraud.
    In a free society that depends upon the peole’s faith in their government and its practices and procedures, faith in elections is important. Voting should be relatively easy and absolutely done by a process that insures integrity. I just had to show my picture I.D. at the Doctors office this week and show my I.D. again to have the prescription filled at the pharmacy. Mildly bothersome requirements but not so onerous that it would keep me from doing either.

  39. Anonymous says:

    Well sure Bill I mean if you can do something certainly everyone else should…

    Voter ID is a solution waiting for a problem which is what politicians of the right complain about more often than flag burning these days. Big government intervention where none is needed and all for the nefarious purpose of driving voters who just don’t have IDs away from voting and guess which party most of those people vote for in elections?

    You can bet your bottom dollar on one thing; if voters without photo IDs were predominately republicans, that would be the last you ever heard about needing an ID to vote. This is not about fair elections, this is not about democracy or fraud free elections, this is about keeping democratic voters away from the polls and whether it means no early voting, or not voting by mail, or no voting booths in convenient locations, or not drinking water on long lines, its only about keeping the number of democratic voters low.


  40. Athos says:

    False argument, anny. Thought you could do better! Name one person in today’s America that doesn’t have a picture ID.

    I’ll just wait patiently over here for your answer.

    And just for your edification, Nevada gives all illegals who apply, photo id driver’s license. Probably register them to vote and mail ’em a ballot, but I don’t know that for sure.

  41. Athos says:

    Rin, the other thing that keeps bothering me is the following: Laxalt led Cortez by (I seem to remember, but could be wrong) 20,000 votes on election night. And I think that was out of roughly 830,000 votes cast and counted 11/8. It may have been only 16,000 votes but my point is that Laxalt was getting roughly 51% of the vote to CM’s 49%. And afterwords, CM got 63% of the vote, to Laxalt’s 35%. And 15% of the vote had to come AFTER 11/8, thru the mail.
    Bad stink, Rin. Very poor optics for anyone trying to sell a fair, no cheating election, wouldn’t you agree?

  42. Anonymous says:

    “This memo presents an overview of government-issued photo identification
    ownership based on the 2012 American National Elections Study (ANES).
    Key findings show:
    • Rates of identification-ownership are highest among White individuals,
    while other ethnic groups disproportionately lack necessary photo ID.
    Thirteen percent of Blacks, 10 percent of Hispanics, but only 5 percent
    of Whites lack photographic identification.
    • Lower-income individuals are less likely to have photo ID. Twelve
    percent of adults living in a household with less than $25,000 annual
    income lack photo ID, compared to just 2 percent in households with
    over $150,000 annual income.
    • Young adults are less likely to have photo ID: 15 percent of 17-20 yearolds lack photo ID, and 11 percent of those ages 21-24 lack photo ID.”

    Click to access AMERICANS-WITH-PHOTO-ID-Research-Memo-February-2015.pdf

  43. Anonymous says:

    Ten states now have unprecedented restrictive voter ID laws. Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wisconsin all require citizens to produce specific types of government-issued photo identification before they can cast a vote that will count. Legal precedent requires these states to provide free photo ID to eligible voters who do not have one.

    Unfortunately, these free IDs are not equally accessible to all voters. This report is the first comprehensive assessment of the difficulties that eligible voters face in obtaining free photo ID.

    The 11 percent of eligible voters who lack the required photo ID must travel to a designated government office to obtain one. Yet many citizens will have trouble making this trip. In the 10 states with restrictive voter ID laws:

    Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options.
    More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.
    1.2 million eligible black voters and 500,000 eligible Hispanic voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. People of color are more likely to be disenfranchised by these laws since they are less likely to have photo ID than the general population.
    Many ID-issuing offices maintain limited business hours. For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays. In other states — Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas — many part-time ID-issuing offices are in the rural regions with the highest concentrations of people of color and people in poverty.


  44. Athos says:

    Anny, you come up with some phony baloney study group that supports your narrative (surprise!) but you can’t name ONE person that doesn’t have a photo ID.

    Sorry, dude, I call BS. Possibly homeless, but certainly not anyone that collects welfare, cashes a paycheck, or has any dealings in the modern world can live without a photo ID.

    And if so, then they won’t be mailed a ballot, would they? Or be on ANY public role that would show that they’re alive (and legally in the USA) would they? In Nevada, as with some other states, illegals can get a drivers license and photo ID. So the argument that requiring photo ID disenfranchises certain voters is FALSE.

    So tell me, why do you fellas keep lying about it?

  45. Rincon says:

    63% of the vote? It seems unlikely that someone would go to the trouble of casting so many false ballots that their candidate walks away with a 28% victory margin. Not knowing the dynamic, I just wonder if some of the smaller areas were able to finish counting and report their votes before some of the more urban areas in Clark County. If the Republicans don’t trust it, they can always have a vote audit performed.

  46. Bill says:

    Anony, it is my understanding that 35 states impose some requirements for voter I.D. in order to vote or register. That would seem to be only common sense a minimal requirement if one truly wants an honest electorate comprised only of citizens. Most, if not all states, haveprovisions for vptomg when and if the voter does not present a valid photo I.D.

    Obtaining photo I.D. is a minimal effort. No one is disenfranchised for their failure to obtain a photo I.D. where it is required. Rather, that person has chosen not to exert the minimal effort needed to qualify him/her to vote.
    I can recall when one had to go to the Clerk/Registrar of Voters Office to actually register to vote.
    In these days of everyone is registered and everyone is mailed a ballot whether they want one or not, it seems that such a system would be easy pickings for voter fraud or and certainly prime for harvesting low information voters ballots.

  47. Anonymous says:

    Bill I’ll try to make this even clearer than I thought I did already regarding the asserted need for Voter ID.

    In spite of seemingly non-stop efforts lately to find some fraud in this country’s elections, which naturally entails spending millions and millions of taxpayer dollars and comes with the danger that citizens lose faith in the system by mere allegations that there are such problems, the result is that there has not been shown to be any material fraud in any jurisdiction in the entire country. I’ve cited Ohio as evidence of this before where following the 2016 presidential election the orange stain made such outrageous accusations about the fraud that prevented him from winning the popular vote that states actually recounted, audited, then recounted the audited votes. Ohio spent tens of millions of dollars auditing their vote and guess what they discovered?

    Of the more than 3 million votes cast, approximately 80 votes were flagged as “potentially” fraudulent but most were simply folks who had moved from one state to another and possibly voted in one state where they weren’t residents at the time. Tens of millions of dollars to find that out all the while casting aspersions about the rampant fraud in the system.

    The point is, after all this “evidence” that there isn’t rampant fraud, why are there still discussions about making it harder to vote because, whether you found it simple or cheap or convenient to obtain an ID, tens of millions of Americans aren’t as lucky, or wealthy, or close, as you are. That is what the studies that I cited here indicate and your anecdotal experiences don’t change that fact.

    Clearly, the only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason that folks on the right want to add more government and taxpayer dollars to this effort is to eliminate democratic voters.

  48. Athos says:

    Rinny, Laxalt’s lead diminished every day after Tuesday night until the Saturday mail was counted giving CM a 7,000 vote victory (less than 1% of the vote). As to the audit, the envelops are separated from the votes which is why mail in voting is the easiest way to cheat (France banned it in 1975! and “In 2005, Carter co-wrote a report that stated “absentee ballots remain the largest source of potential voter fraud.”)
    Nevada needs to return to the days where people REQUESTED mail in ballot instead of mailing one to every registered voter (alive or dead, at their last known address)!

    Anny, stop the virulent TDS, and check out Maricopa County and then tell me about how people on the right want to “eliminate Democrat voters” (I had to edit your democratic adjective because America has a Republic so of course, we don’t have democratic voters!)

    And Anny STILL hasn’t named ONE person of voting age that doesn’t have a photo id.

    How ’bout that?!?

  49. reziac says:

    Regarding 1.8 million mailed out and half of those not returned, and how to cheat:

    Flag each voter WHO VOTED just as you would in the poll books. Those ballots are off the table.

    HOWEVER… all ballots that were not returned are still “available” to be voted, if one has control over the tally. Since the poll book knows who has already voted, those doing the tally can “vote” for the rest of ’em.

    And you don’t need to do it for all million outstanding ballots; only for enough to beat the opposition. Which might be 1 or 2 percent of those outstanding ballots. Doesn’t sound so hard now, does it??

  50. Athos says:

    Especially if you have from Tuesday night to Saturday night to accomplish it!

  51. Rincon says:

    I may have misinterpreted. Since you objected to Laxalt’s lead dropping from 63% to less than 50%, I thought it meant that you felt that without cheating, the real vote must have been lopsided in Laxalt’s favor. That’s not the case?

    Either way, it sounds like Nevada has a ways to go with their voting system. You’re right to object to sending ballots to every household, but I don’t see the separation of the envelope from the ballot to be a problem. The ballot is the thing with the signature, and to compare the signature, there has to be a name attached to the ballot. I don’t see how keeping the envelope would add to security.

  52. Athos says:

    There’s no signature on the ballot. It’s only on the envelope (secret vote and all). And once you separate the ballot from the envelope (and throw the envelope away) there’s no chain of custody.
    Daniel Greenfield wrote an excellent article how “Voters aren’t choosing Dems, Dems are choosing voters”. Really nails this last election. If you can find it, it’s worth the read.

  53. Bill says:

    When they say hat they compare the signature, it is mechanically done and it can be set at thew lowest form of signature recognition as to be totally worthless as a check for authenticity. Why send ballots to everyone? What purpose is served? That practiced encourages ballot harvesting and fraud. Qyery: Do you want someone voting who is so low interest and probably low ionformation voter? Aren’t they precisely the type of person who would not only let their ballot be marked by someone else and not really care?

  54. Anonymous says:

    Why send ballots to everyone Bill?

    The reason is because voting is important and this country should do all it can to give people the opportunity to vote that’s why.

  55. Bill says:

    I believe there should be no barriers to qualified electors who want to cast their vote. Sending out unsolicited ballots to the entire universe is insane and invites fraud.
    I do not believe that voting should be more than a few days.

    I think that someone should be interested enough in their various governments to take the somewhat minimal effort to obtain a ballot.

    I do not believe in sending unsolicited ballots to persons who may or may not exist or be qualified to vote.

    To those who say that minorities are too helpless or incapable of registering to vote or obtaining I.D., I would say that it is blatant racism expressed in soft tones and is an insult.
    Finally, if you want elections to be believed in then the process has to be improved. There should be no fraud. Why would any responsible person want otherwise?

  56. Athos says:

    Nailed it, Bill. Thank you. From your lips to our legislators ears, eh?

  57. Anonymous says:


    You believe there should be no barriers to qualified electors who want to cast their vote and yet you believe that voting should be no more than a few days and yet some people because of quite reasonable reasons (out of the country, in a hospital, working during business hours while elections are being held, will be unable to vote; these two things are inconsistent.

    You believe there should be no barriers to qualified electors who want to cast their vote and yet you think that someone should be interested enough in their various governments to take the (asserted) somewhat minimal effort to obtain a ballot, and yet as just one of the studies I posted showed, 10% of voters live more than 10 miles from where ballots are and do not have a means of transportation; these two things are inconsistent.

    You believe there should be no barriers to qualified electors who want to cast their vote and yet you do not believe that one of those barriers (the actual ballot itself) should be sent to them which removes one obstacle to voting which is not having a ballot to cast; these two things are inconsistent.

    Because no one said anything here about minorities being “too helpless” or “incapable” of registering to vote, I cannot speak to whether it was said at all, or merely created by some folks on the right out of a racist desire to smear those individuals.

    And finally Bill, as I said before, my home state of Ohio did an audit of votes in 2016 after the orange stain wailed and whined about the rampant fraud in this country that prevented him from obtaining the popular vote victory that he wanted and so Ohio taxpayers were forced to pay more than 3 million dollars to discover that there was no fraud whatsoever in their voting.

    My question to you is, given your statement about wanting no fraud, and needing to improve elections because people “believe” there is fraud; how much money should the taxpayers spend, on an election system where there simply is no fraud, to improve it to a point where you would be satisfied?

  58. Bill says:

    Insofar as I know, there is no State that denies a voter an absentee ballot upon request. I have used them for years, while in the military, while in school, while on trips and once when I didn’t know if I would be here on election day. So is your premise is wrong about unavailability of opportunity to cast a ballot.
    As far as the study done on distance from here has never been a problem.

    As for the 2016 election that you cite, I don’t know anything about Ohio, but it was not Donald Trump requesting audits or recounts of the election. ” Following Republican nominee Donald Trump’s presumed electoral college victory in the United States presidential election of 2016, a group of computer scientists, cyber security experts, and election monitors raised concerns about the integrity of the election results. They all insisted that the only way Trump could have won was by some anomaly. They urged the campaign staff of Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, who had conceded the campaign on November 9, to petition for a recount…”
    I may write something later, but for now, I would remind you that it is Hillary Clinton who already has warned of the 2024 election being stolen and that is still 2 years in the future.

  59. Anonymous says:

    Bill the point of what I wrote was to demonstrate that while you claim to believe that there should be no barriers to qualified electors who want to cast their vote, all the suggestions and recommendations you propose establish barriers to those electors from casting a vote.

    As to who wailed and gnashed his teeth and led Americans to believe that some massive electoral fraud was being committed in 2016 there’s this:

    On May 11, 2017, President Donald Trump signed an executive order creating the “Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity.” Vice President Mike Pence is the chair, and Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach — one of the nation’s leading promoters of the myth of voter fraud and laws restricting access to voting — is the vice chair. Its members include Hans von Spakovsky of the Heritage Foundation and J. Christian Adams of the Public Interest Legal Foundation, two of the country’s most notorious advocates for voter suppression.

    The Commission was created in the wake of President Trump’s repeated assertions that millions voted illegally in the 2016 election.


    And if you are unaware, this Commission was later dissolved for many reason most of them having to do with the states being unable to find any fraud (naturally) despite spending tens of millions of dollars of taxpayer money trying to placate this orange stain and of course, casting doubt in the eyes of millions of Americans of the reliability of a system that relies upon the trust of those people to function.

  60. Athos says:


    If you want untainted elections, return to pre-2020 election procedures, with same day results being announce (like Florida, that actually voted during the effects of a Hurricane) and end mass mail-in ballots.

    What is wrong with that, anny?

  61. Bill says:

    Interesting. There will always be those who seek to cheat. The more that voting is not a simple direct act of casting and counting the votes, the more opportunity there will be for fraud. And those on the left seem to condone it so long as it is not “wide spread” or “substantial” and the outcome is to their liking.

  62. Anonymous says:

    I remember republicans after 911 condemning all manner of humanity for the perceived failure of some people to vehemently condemn the terror attacks. The argument went that if they couldn’t condemn the attacks then those people were either terrorists themselves or were supporting the terrorist acts.

    With that in mind, I wonder why we have not heard any condemnation of the former president here who recently said that we needed to throw out the Constitution, and the last election, and make him president again?


  63. Athos says:

    Sources, anny. Sources please. And IF you can provide sources about 45’s alleged statements, we can discus that AFTER you counter our arguments that mass mail in ballots provide the weakest form of “chain of custody” needed to ensure a fair election, which makes them ripe for cheating. (and there will always be suspicion of cheating when it takes 4 days to process all the mail in votes)

    So what’s it gonna be? What is the objection of returning mail in ballots to their status prior to the Wuhan flu?

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