Federal taxpayer ObamaCare ‘carrots’ fetch a high price

Congratulations, Nevada, for once you are not at the bottom of the ranking.

Not performing all that well, but not as bad as others.

After getting $90 million in federal funding to set up and run the Silver State Health Insurance Exchange, the state has signed up 16,030 for insurance. That’s about $5,600 per insured, and who knows how many of those previously had a plan they liked but had it canceled.

But it is much better than Hawaii, which has spent $56,819 in federal taxpayer money per enrollee.

Even if Nevada reaches its new, lower goal of 50,000 enrollees — down from 114,000 or 118,000 depending on your source and what day it is — that’s still $1,800 each in federal taxpayer “carrots.”

Maybe enrollment will pick up since Obama by fiat has waived the employer mandate “stick” for another year for some companies and lowered the percentage of employees required to be covered for others, leaving employees on their own to comply with the individual mandate, which was not waived.

That is if the state can fix its ailing online website.

IBD graphic

94 comments on “Federal taxpayer ObamaCare ‘carrots’ fetch a high price

  1. Vernon Clayson says:

    And this is just about enrollment, the actual costs to enrollees and actual health care, like, you know, visits to medical providers. From all appearances, the Affordable Care Act, has tentacles and problems the designers didn’t consider in their computer models, it looked good on their monitor presentations and actuarial graphs but it’s not so hot with actual people, and politicians that pushed and passed it had no more understanding of it than any of us do now.

  2. L. Gordon Crovitz observes:

    “Perhaps ObamaCare will be remembered as the breaking point for top-down planning. There is not enough information available for the government to micromanage a system as complex as health care, which represents more than 15% of the economy. Austrian economist Friedrich Hayek wrote some 50 years ago about the ‘pretence of knowledge,’ meaning the conceit that planners could know enough about complex markets to dictate how they operate. He warned against ‘the belief that we possess the knowledge and the power which enable us to shape the processes of society entirely to our liking, knowledge which in fact we do not possess.’”


  3. Nyp says:

    Fourteen million Americans who now have quality health insurance. And counting.
    That really bothers you guys.

  4. Steve says:

    “quality health insurance” :mrgreen:

  5. Nyp says:

    What is the joke? You think the plans are not high quality?

  6. Milty says:

    “Fourteen million Americans who now have quality health insurance. And counting.
    That really bothers you guys.”

    How many of those 14M were previously uninsured?

    And if the number of people who have health insurance is all that matters, then why aren’t you glorifying the number of people who gain access to health care each year by going to prison? And why aren’t you lamenting the fact that the prison population has declined in the past few years, thereby depriving people of their access to health care?

  7. nyp says:

    1. your prison schtick is not worth responding to.
    2. It is true that some percentage of the ACA sign-ups previously had insurance. Bad insurance. Many of them had “mini-med” plans that only covered a few thousand dollars of expenses, or didn’t cover hospitalization, or had extremely low annual or lifetime caps. Being underinsured, having a junk policy, is almost as bad as not being insured at all. Much of the squawking you heard about people whose policies were cancelled concerns these junk plans. That is why I keep talking about the number of Americans who now have quality, affordable health insurance.
    3. If you would like a very fair-minded review of the ACA enrollment numbers, see this:

  8. Milty says:

    “your prison schtick is not worth responding to.”

    Why isn’t it worth responding to? Every posting you’ve had on this blog emphasizes the number of people who obtained health insurance. Nothing else matters to you.

    Mr. Mitchell’s posting above is an example of this. He points out that the cost of insuring people thru the health exchanges is excessive, and your response was, “Fourteen million Americans who now have quality health insurance. And counting.” You obviously couldn’t care less about the cost of all this.

    If my assessment of your priorities (or lack thereof) is incorrect, I welcome your response telling me what else is important to you other than the number of people insured.

  9. Steve says:

    Cadillac plans are wrong but lower “quality health insurance” is good.

    Less is more.

    Thanks, Winston.

  10. nyp says:

    Well, I can tell you what does not matter to me, OK?

    What does not matter to me is a comparison of the cost of establishing a permanent online health insurance marketplace, one intended to function over many years, with the number of people enrolled through that marketplace in the middle of the very first year’s enrollment period. That is an idiotic metric, although it is completely understandable, given that it come from the same people who declared that Professor Stephen Hawking would not be alive today had he been treated by the UK National Health Service.

    Although the fact that fourteen million Americans now have quality health insurance is a great achievement, and something that we can all be proud of, but I concede that it is not the sole means of assessing the success of the ACA. If the cost of partly subsidizing the insurance these Americans was way higher than projections, that would be an important consideration. If death panels were now being established to decide whether Sarah Palin’s relatives should live or die, that would be an important consideration. If a government official was sitting in your doctor’s office interfering with your doctor-patient relationship, that would be an important consideration. If the health care cost curve was shifting dramatically upwards, that would be an important consideration.

    But none of these things, all predicted over and over again by Republicans since 2009, have come to pass. Nor will they.

  11. nyp says:

    “Cadillac” plans provide compensation in the form of tax-deductable benefits. By having zero or minimal co-pays or deductibles, they encourage wasteful use of medical resources — a fact that conservatives have pointed out for year. If people want to have Cadillac plans they are entitled to do so. But they shouldn’t have tax advantaged status as a form of compensation. The ACA addresses that.

    Mini-med plans are bad because they provide junk insurance. People think they are getting coverage, but wind up with a huge surprise then the carrier refuses to pay their hospital bill. Doing away with such junk insurance is one of the ACA’s great achievements.

  12. “If a government official was sitting in your doctor’s office interfering with your doctor-patient relationship, that would be an important consideration.”


    Kit Daniels:

    Section 1311(h)(1)(b) of Obamacare reads:
    “Beginning on January 1, 2015, a qualified health plan may contract with … a health care provider only if such provider implements such mechanisms to improve health care quality as the Secretary may by regulation require.”
    In other words, insurance companies will be banned from doing business with doctors who do not comply with the regulations established by the health secretary – and there’s almost no limit on what these regulations may entail.
    “Under President Obama’s health care law, should the HHS Secretary determine that performing mammograms on women younger than 50 violates a standard of care, the provider must comply, regardless of his or her concerns,” Rep. Phil Gingrey, M.D. (R-Ga.) said on the subject. “Failure to do so would allow the Secretary to shut down a medical practice.
    “The powers given to the Secretary are so broad, he or she could literally dictate how all physicians nationwide practice medicine.”
    The lawmaker also added that the provision violates “the sanctity of the doctor-patient relationship, as physicians are trained to treat patients individually and not with a ‘one-size-fits-all’ approach.”

    Socialized socialized medicine, designed for groups not individuals.

  13. nyp says:

    Oh my God, you are relying on an Alex Jones website.

  14. Oh my God, it accurately quotes the law!

  15. Why is it always the messenger and never the message?

  16. Milty says:

    Was Section 1311(h)(1)(b) of PPACA misquoted? Was it misinterpreted?

    Was Congressman Gingrey misquoted?

  17. Milty says:

    “If the cost of partly subsidizing the insurance these Americans was way higher than projections, that would be an important consideration.”

    So what is the projected cost per person per year of the subsidy? I can’t find that information anywhere.

  18. Athos says:

    My problem with Øcare is the following:

    I don’t want to live under a failed socialist government. That’s what Cuba or Europe is for.

    My grandparents ESCAPED Europe. AND they came to …….


  19. Steve says:

    Lots of words to say subsidy’s are not tax based benefits offering (requiring) lower quality insurance coverage. (specially considering the whole thing is constitutional due only to being a tax)

    Lots of words masking reality. The costs are clear in the red ink, low numbers of sign ups, lowered expectations and hoping the sign up rate quadruples in the last quarter of the enrollment window.

    Anyone wonder what the next “extension” is likely to be?

  20. Vernon Clayson says:

    Health insurance is hardly a concern with the majority of young people, that would be late teens into their 30s, it’s okay to have it but they don’t dwell on it, why should they, the vast majority are active and healthy. It’s the same for them with politics, few dwell on that BS and the government harpies aren’t going to reach them with scare stories. Young parents have a concern but with or without insurance they see that their children have needed care, every kid gets a cold, wart, or earache it’s difficult to believe that it requires bureaucrats in faraway Washington to direct and approve care for normal childhood diseases.

  21. Winston Smith says:

    Oh, I see we’re back to trying guess which websites petey allows us to quote. Last time it was over the NY Post, wasn’t it? One of these days I’ll have to find a nice neo-NAZI site to quote from, just to see if petey’s head explodes. Wait, like the SPLC, he probably already thinks Alex Jones is a neo-NAZI.

    Petey, pls check these websites to see if I’m allowed to quote them:


    And, of course, my very favorite:


    That last one, especially, is DangeRuss!

  22. nyp says:

    1. It is not only “the messenger.” But when you rely on ugly paranoid nutjob conspiracy-monger like Alec Jones for your information, that strongly suggests that you are, at a minimum, missing important context.
    2. Let’s look at that context. The fragment that you cite is taken from a section of the law entitled “Rewarding Quality Through Market-Based Incentives.” By its terms, it is designed to “improve health outcomes through the implementation of activities that shall include quality reporting, effective case management, care coordination, chronic disease management, medication and care compliance initiatives, including through the use of the medical home model, for treatment or services under the plan or coverage.” It also aims to encourage “the implementation of activities to prevent hospital readmissions through a comprehensive program for hospital discharge that includes patient-centered education and counseling, comprehensive discharge planning, and post discharge reinforcement by an appropriate health care professional.” It is also designed to encourage “the implementation of activities to improve patient safety and reduce medical errors through the appropriate use of best clinical practices, evidence based medicine, and health information technology under the plan or coverage.” The regulations that HHS is authorized to draft are intended, among other things, to implement those patient quality goals.

    Why you think that someone who takes advantage of federally-subsidized health insurance plan should not have to comply with safety and quality standards is beyond me. Similar sorts of standards are already in place for providers who provide coverage to Medicare and Medicaid patients. Perhaps someone on this board can tell me which federal Medicare rules are improperly interfering with their relationship with their physician.

    Of course, it could be the case that a paranoid ugly nut-job like Alec Jones is right, and the government will issue regulations requiring doctors to withhold lifesaving treatments from old people and people with Downs Syndrome. But HHS has now had four years in which to promulgate these evil rules. Which ones do you point to as embodying the Orwellian evils that Alec Jones warns about?

  23. nyp says:

    1. Milty: you can find the original and revised cost and revenue estimates in the CBO analyses.
    2. Athos: I am sorry that you dislike Medicare and Social Security so much. I happen to approve of both programs.

  24. Milty says:

    “The regulations that HHS is authorized to draft are intended, among other things, to implement those patient quality goals.”

    Just like the regulations that federal agencies drafted requiring employers to provide insurance for their employees by certain dates specified in the original legislation?

  25. nyp says:

    Ah, you are shifting to the delay in the implementation of the employer mandate — is that it?

  26. Athos says:

    I don’t approve, petey. They’re socialist, failed policies. And the proof will become obvious to all when the money runs out.

    Those of us that can’t legally print money, and don’t believe in “magic beans” know these programs (which are really just a tax) can see the writing on the wall (or the unfunded money on the books!).

    Did you invest your money with Bernie Madoff, by chance?


    That’s a shame! Otherwise you’d know what I’m talking about.

  27. Milty says:

    “Ah, you are shifting to the delay in the implementation of the employer mandate — is that it?”

    I’m not shifting to anything, Nyp. You wrote, “The regulations that HHS is authorized to draft are intended, among other things, to implement those patient quality goals.” If you believe that HHS will remain faithful to the original legislation in its implementation of the law, I think you’re being a bit naive given the federal government’s history of disregarding what’s written in the legislation in the regulations its already written.

  28. nyp says:

    I agree that if, like many Republicans do, you think that Medicare and Social Security are bad programs that should be repealed, you should likely also oppose the Affordable Care Act.

    On the other hand, most Americans believe that Medicare and Social Security were among the greatest achievements of American public policy of all time.

  29. Steve says:

    I notice Nyp is sticking to the total number rather than the percentages now.

    Must be the percentages are not so good for his argument.

  30. Milty says:

    Ah, Nyp, you are shifting to Medicare and Social Security — is that it?

  31. nyp says:

    steve – i don’t know what you are talking about.
    Milty – I am merely responding to Athos (and Mr. Mitchell,) who believes, like so many Republicans do, that Social Security and Medicare are unconstitutional, are bad policy, and should be repealed.

  32. Steve says:

    14,000,000 is 47% at 75% of the enrollment window passed.

    Those percentages do not support your argument.

  33. nyp says:

    We hoped to have 7 million enrollees in the private plans by the end of the first year’s enrollment period. The latest CBO report projects that we will have in the neighborhood of 6 million. That is quite good. The Medicaid enrollment projections were based on the original act, which assumed that all states would expand their Medicaid enrollment. The Supreme Court put an end to that, and many red state governors have chosen to screw their poor people by turning down the federal Medicaid money.

    On the other hand, it is heartening that your principal criticism of health reform is that it hasn’t enrolled enough Americans.

  34. Winston Smith says:

    Isn’t it nice that we have the actual text of the law to review, to try to understand (or guess) how it’ll actually be implemented? A opportunity Ms. Pelosi did not want for the members of House before they voted on it.

    As we all know, perhaps even petey, the United States Constitution gave the power to create laws to the legislative branch, i.e., Congress. Unfortunately, for the last several decades, the executive and judicial branches have also been doing so, to one level or another. But the biggest creator of illegitimate law is the fourth branch of the federal government, the regulatory branch, AKA, Leviathan.

    As always, It is with Leviathan that the real damage will be done, robbing us of our liberty and dehumanizing us with collectivist controls. To politicians, the advantage of letting Leviathan do the dirty work is that they can never be specifically blamed, because they’ll always plead ignorance of their laws’ ramifications. And, of course, the local petty-tyrant functionary of Leviathan will claim that he was just trying to interpret an ambiguous law as best as he understood it.

    TA DA!

    Can’t blame the guys who wrote the law, can’t blame the guys who implemented it. What a country!

  35. Steve says:

    Of Course, Nyp. I, like most conservatives have been saying all along the health care system, as good the the provider services are, was breaking down from the associated costs with middlemen in the form of a huge insurance bureaucracy. The difference (to me) was and is, increasing bureaucracy and regulation to solve the problem of an over sized, inefficient, bureaucracy is the wrong way to go.

    The numbers are showing that I am among people who were and are correct, in that feeling.
    The most desired of all, the young invincibles, are simply not signing up to spend too much of their money for too little coverage.

    AND your support for a law that is failing to deliver on the inflated promises it had from the start is at the least misguided.

  36. nyp says:

    “Isn’t it nice that we have the actual text of the law to review?A opportunity Ms. Pelosi did not want for the members of House before they voted on it.”

    What a dumb thing to say. You really don’t think the bill was printed and made available to every member of both bodies, as well as to the media and public well before it was voted on? That is crazy.

  37. Steve says:

    “But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of controversy.”


    “What a dumb thing to say.”


  38. Winston Smith says:

    The interesting thing about the Control Freaks in government (left or right) is that they will always assure us that nothing bad will come from their new “policies”, that those of us who complain should have no fear of negative ramifications. Then, when they are proved wrong, it’s because:

    1. The new policy did not go far enough
    2. More money needs to be thrown at it
    3. It was implemented incorrectly
    4. We don’t understand the policy
    5. They never promised how it would work

    Do they ever apologize for being wrong? Do they ever discontinue a failed policy? Do they ever realize that their underlying Control Freak philosophy is inherently bad?

    I can only think of one thing the federal government has done in my lifetime that it reversed after realizing it was a mistake, and that is the double-nickel. Anybody else have some?

    BTW, petey, have you any comment about Leviathan? You never seem to discuss the overriding principles or philosophy of government, you just defend the specific acts of Big Government, hence my suspicion that you’re just a low-level functionary somewhere, supporting whatever policy brings more power to the collective over the individual.

    What say ye?

  39. Athos says:

    petey, SS and medicare, as most people understand it, IS unconstitutional. But that doesn’t matter because it WILL be dramatically altered when the demographics and the money catch up to “the plan”.

    Much like Øcare. It was DESIGNED to crash, and then we can all go to single payer (aka. government health care). Cloward and Piven were REAL people and their plan to overwhelm the system and replace it with socialism/communism is also quite real.

    But you already know that, don’t you, petey?

  40. Nyp says:

    So Social Security was “designed to crash” when it was enacted in 1935.

    Who knew?

  41. Nyp says:

    Steve- pelosi was quite obviously saying that people will not appreciate what is in the bill until they start seeing the actual effects on their own lives.

    Your interpretation — that the law was written with some kind of special invisible ink — is just dumb.

  42. Steve says:

    I never “interpreted” what she said. She was saying the public wouldn’t see what it did until it got passed. She chose a very poor string of words and it came off a really dumb. Her statement is a window on her mentality.

    Further, now that we ARE seeing what its doing, we are NOT happy with it and we are seeing even more of what we were saying would happen come to fruition, one obvious outcome is that stubborn failing grade you keep trying to splain away with CBO figures based on new figures from the very people who are trying befuddle you guys with their bullshit. For those projections to work out the signup rate will have to quadruple in the next month and a half!

    (unless Obama decrees yet another “extension” which would only add to the failures of the behemoth)

  43. nyp says:

    I certainly agree with you that four years ago Nancy Pelosi spoke awkwardly about the benefits of the Affordable Care Act.But that is not what you originally said. You wrote that she
    “did not want for the members of House [to read the bill] before they voted on it.”

    We are not up to 14.4 million sign-ups. By the end of the enrollment period around six million Americans will purchase private insurance through nevadahealthlink.com, healthcare.gov, and other online sites.

    That is a significant achievement. A big step forward towards providing healthcare security for the American people.

  44. Steve says:

    “You wrote that she” :
    “did not want for the members of House [to read the bill] before they voted on it.”

    No I didn’t. Nowhere on this blog will you find I made any post to that effect.
    You will find I am certainly sure Nacy Pelosi is a book smart verbal idiot who wins elections in a state with places full of people just like her in that regard.

    “By the end of the enrollment period around six million Americans will purchase private insurance through nevadahealthlink.com, healthcare.gov, and other online sites.”
    This is counting chickens before they hatch and relies on a quadrupling in the rate of sign up activity.
    Your link shows the current number is either approx 8.8 or 14.4
    Both of these are failing grades and indicate a huge majority are people who had insurance before Obamacare, you guys are hoping against hope for the “young invicibles” money and they aren’t stepping up to the plate. In fact they are taking their balls and going home to pay the mortgage and rent instead.

  45. From today’s R-J:

    “’Young invincibles’ make strides: Nevada Health Link has seen a slight uptick in its number of younger enrollees. As of Feb. 1, 27.1 percent of paid enrollees were under 35. That number was 26.8 percent on Jan. 18. Federal officials say the stat needs to be closer to 40 percent for exchanges to avoid the “death spiral” that comes from too few healthy, young enrollees and too many sicker, older ones.”

    I’m sure someone will shoot the messenger.


  46. Nyp says:

    Steve – you are right. It was “Winston Smith” who wrote it.
    “Isn’t it nice that we have the actual text of the law to review, to try to understand (or guess) how it’ll actually be implemented? A opportunity Ms. Pelosi did not want for the members of House before they voted on it.”

  47. Nyp says:

    Mr. Mitchell —
    “Federal officials say the stat needs to be closer to 40 percent for exchanges to avoid the “death spiral” that comes from too few healthy, young enrollees and too many sicker, older one.”

    Which “federal officials”??

    The writer pulled that one right out of her kiester.

  48. Steve says:

    “While 24 percent is not a bad start, say independent experts, it should be closer to 40 percent to help keep premiums down.”
    Seattle Times, winner of nine Pulitzer Prizes.

    Current numbers are enough to prevent the dreaded “death Spiral” though they indicate a significant increase in already high premiums next year which will encourage more people to stay out of the program. (IMO)

  49. Steve says:

    “Adults ages 18-34 represent 40 percent of the target group for the health care law, according to a recent Kaiser study. Open enrollment ends March 31.”

    The Tennessean

  50. Athos says:

    “Who knew?”

    FDR knew, petey. That’s how power works. Get a free society to depend on the ruling elite, and have them trade their liberties for some magic beans.

    Plus an unhealthy dose of lying, and a cute disingenuous title, and there you have it! No one has paid a dime into a retirement plan or a medical plan provided by the government ( even if they THINK that’s what they’ve been paying all their working lives).

    We’ve all been paying a tax.

    Deceitful, yes. And shame on the Amerixan people for being duped for so long!

  51. Nyp says:

    Which “federal officials”??

    The writer pulled that one right out of her kiester.

  52. Athos says:

    Here’s a short video on why this evil regime of Øcare is wrong.

  53. While rates aren’t likely to shoot up in 2015, mostly because of a tax on health insurance is subsidizing insurers’ costs, as those subsidies wind down, insurers are expected to increase their premiums to more appropriate levels, probably beginning in 2016. “That may be when the death spiral begins to pick up speed.”


    Of course, the NYT and WaPo say there’ll be no death spiral as they skip merrily down the yellow brick road.

  54. Steve says:

    “Last month, the Department of Health and Human Services announced 3 million people have signed up for insurance on the federal and state exchanges. The Congressional Budget Office estimated about 7 million people will enroll by the end of 2014, a number the Obama administration has set as a goal. It also hopes about 40% of these people are in the 18-to-35 age range, though just about a quarter of the newly enrolled are in that range.”

    USA Today.

    I presume you are not going to claim HHS is not comprised of “Federal Officials”, Nyp?

    Young Adults Make Up One-Fourth Of Obamacare Enrollees
    Just under a quarter of Obamacare sign-ups so far have been in the critical 18-to-35-year-old age range, the Obama administration revealed Monday, the first time officials have given demographic data about health plan enrollees. The administration had set a goal of around 38 percent to 40 percent of the enrollees in that age bracket by the time the sign-up season ends March 31

    Maybe the Obama Administration has no “Federal Officials”?


  55. Steve says:

    OH and CBO…I presume THEY are comprised of “Federal Officials” too.

  56. Nyp says:

    Which ones say that unless 40% of enrolled are young the program goes into a death spiral?

    She pulled that one right out of her kiester.

  57. Steve says:

    She didn’t write that.
    Now YOU are subverting and spinning her words, Nyp.

  58. Nyp says:

    Mr. Mitchell. It isn’t just NYT & WaPo. Try Avik Roy over at Forbes.

  59. Nyp says:

    Athos – I don’t do video links. Tell me what it says.

  60. Nyp says:

    Oh, yes she did:
    “Federal officials say the stat needs to be closer to 40 percent for exchanges to avoid the “death spiral” that comes from too few healthy, young enrollees and too many sicker, older ones”

    Which federal officials said that? Looks like she pulled that right out of her kiester.

  61. Steve says:

    “unless 40% of enrolled are young the program goes into a death spiral”

    Is NOT

    “Federal officials say the stat needs to be closer to 40 percent for exchanges to avoid the “death spiral”

    There is probably a line somewhere from someone in HHS os Maybe the Administration that says they need to be “closer to 40%” than they are now but by the time she wrote that it has become “close enough” to 40% to avoid the “death spiral”. Mainly due to more tax money going to insurance companies to cover the failure of Obamacare.

    “We are confident, based on the results we have now that we’ll have an appropriate mix,” said Mike Hash, director of HHS’s Office of Health Reform.”
    This certainly supports her words that they are yet at the place they need to be.

    AND now you have a name. You throw a bunch of aspersions around and refuse to back them up. Watch Athos video instead of making others transcribe it for you.

  62. Athos says:

    It’s easy, petey! Just take your mouse cursor and click the picture.

    Even a utopian, socialist dreamer, government employee like you can click a picture, right?

  63. Nyp says:

    I don’t do video links. Just tell me what it says

  64. Milty says:

    “Athos – I don’t do video links. Tell me what it says.” — Nyp, 12:40pm, Feb16

    “I don’t do video links. Just tell me what it says” — Nyp, 4:19pm, Feb16

    Wow, sounds pretty much like the typical dependent person who isn’t self-sufficient enough to do routine things for himself and requires government assistance for everything.

    By the way, Athos, that was a good video. I’m not very tech savvy like Steve is, but your instructions to take my “mouse cursor and click the picture” worked like a charm once I figured out that the trackball I use is the same as a mouse.

  65. Milty says:

    There probably won’t be a death spiral, but there’s a possibility of a cost spiral.

    As a lot of people have pointed out, age isn’t necessarily the issue. A 50 year old in good health is more desirable than a 25 year old with significant health issues. But there’s no way of knowing the health of the population who signs up for coverage because they can’t be asked those questions.

    If it turns out that a higher than projected percentage of people who sign up have health problems, insurance premiums could rise, but there are failsafes built into the system (rate increases that the government will subsidize, reimbursements to the insurance companies for losses, risk corridors, reinsurance). Unfortunately, someone (look in the mirror) will have to pick up the tab for these things). And I don’t know for sure, but I’m willing to bet that CBO didn’t account for any of these possibilities in its ACA cost projections, which they probably shouldn’t have since right now they’re still just possibilities.


  66. Adverse selection. Sicker people have a greater incentive to sign up.

  67. Steve says:

    Note I have been saying the costs are high and they will only go higher as this behemoth “progresses”

    Progress! Forward! Yes We Can!

  68. Milty says:

    “Adverse selection. Sicker people have a greater incentive to sign up.”

    Agreed, but it looks like the system was set up to deal with this situation.

    Instead of a death spiral, we may be looking at the next big bailout or the next iteration of “too big to fail.”

    Of course, maybe the MyRA contributions will bring in so much money for the feds that it’ll cover the cost of all this.

  69. Nyp says:

    Good to see we are getting past the “oh my God, it’s in a death spiral” meme.


    Now, on to the next phony prediction of imminent doom.

  70. Milty says:

    Nyp, I don’t recall ever claiming that there was going to be a “death spiral.” As I said, it looks like failsafes were built into the system to prop it up with taxpayer money if costs spiraled out of control, which I still believe is a strong possibility. If that happens, it’ll probably hit us without a lot of warning since we don’t have data showing how many exchange enrollees have health issues and how significant those health issues are.

    Did you figure out how to open Athos’ video link yet, or you still waiting for Al Gore, the Coast Guard and the federal net neutrality team to come over and click on the link for you?

  71. Steve says:

    Don’t bother Nyp. He’s too busy being disingenuous.

  72. nyp says:

    I don’t do video links.

  73. Milty says:

    You may have stumbled onto the solution, Nyp. I’ll bet the health exchange websites have a video link, and people like you–who probably constitute the vast majority of potential enrollees–can’t get past that step.

  74. Milty says:

    Here’s the YouTube address for Athos’ link, Nyp. Can you cut and paste it in a new window, then open it?

  75. Milty says:

    AAAGGGGGHHHHHH, didn’t work for me either, I’ll have to call the feds for help too.

  76. nyp says:

    It’s not that I can’t do video links. It’s that I won’t. As a rule, the stupid quotient is too high. And that’s a guarantee with the link comes from Athos. If someone wants to tell me what great insight the video conveys, I will consider responding.

  77. Steve says:

    Nyp will deign to respond only if someone transcribes the audio.

    Lib life, make others do your work for you.

  78. Milty says:

    “Lib life, make others do your work for you.”

    And tell them they have a guaranteed high stupid quotient if they disagree with you.

  79. nyp says:

    Nope. Milty, I would not say that you have a guaranteed high stupid quotient. You don’t appear to be stupid at all.

    Athos, on the other hand, ….

  80. Steve says:

    Then click the vid and prove your aspersion.

  81. Milty says:

    Here’s an example of why there probably won’t be a death spiral with Obamacare. However, if insurance companies are already starting to receive bailouts, that’s not a good sign.


  82. Steve says:

    Whats happening is the bailouts are being moved from the individual (Bankruptcy or ER unpaid) to insurers that lose on a multitude of policyholder claims. It seems to spread the costs over a wider base but it actually costs more because more people are prodded into using the system due to paying more than they used to.
    If it was held to state levels the oversight is easier to accomplish because the numbers remain smaller and within the borders.
    Once this thing went national the whole enchilada balloons due to apparently bottomless pockets of revenue as the federal government does not have to balance its annual budget like the individual states do.
    Vermont has decided to go with state wide single payer, good for them. Hopefully it works at least as well as the Massachusetts effort has. But Vermont also proves that one size simply does not fit all.
    These are some of the reasons it doesn’t work on a national basis and Vermont proves it belongs to each individual state.

  83. Athos says:

    Interesting back and forth, fellas! petey is a prime example of the absolute arrogance of these “we know better than you” utopian, dimwits. Maybe the lack of a Higher Power in their lives is the root problem.

    I mean, if you don’t believe in God, and man is your ideal (especially if your ideal is yourself!) than it would follow that all you need to do is decree “human nature will now be such and such” and their you have it!

    No more power corrupting those in power!

    The ends justify the means (so I can lie with impunity)

    My words mean exactly what I want them to mean, anytime I want!

    The rules of civilized society don’t apply to Kings and Rulers!

    Common sense is dead! We make our own NEW version of common sense (which states human nature will become what we want, and not what it is)

    and finally,

    Who are you going to believe? Me (your Ruler) or your own lying eyes?

  84. Athos says:

    By the way, petey is a typical government worker – He couldn’t pour piss out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel.

  85. Milty says:

    You can add another quote, Athos. Although it came from a British Labor member parliament, it’s states the typical attitude of statists in the US today.

    “in the case of nutrition and health, just as in the case of education, the gentleman in Whitehall really does know better what is good for people than the people know themselves.” — Baron Jay, “The Socialist Case” (1937)

  86. nyp says:

    Remember the Ronald Reagan story that ended with the punchline “There must be a pony somewhere!”

    You guys are kind of like the opposite.

  87. Milty says:

    Worried that blindly optimistic about Obamacare, his parents took him to a psychiatrist. Trying to dampen the Nyp’s spirits, the psychiatrist showed him into a room with a sign on the door that read “Obamacare Health Exchanges.” Inside, the room was piled high with nothing but horse manure. Yet instead of displaying distaste, Nyp clambered to the top of the pile, dropped to all fours, and began digging. “What do you think you’re doing?” the psychiatrist asked. “With all this manure,” Nyp replied, beaming, “there must be a pony in here somewhere.”

  88. Steve says:

    Nyp is the kid in the room with all the new toys afraid if anyone touches them they will break so his response is to lock them all away and allows out only those he thinks are “safe” enough for others to touch.

    We like the dung heep of capitalism.

  89. nyp says:

    So far, 14.4 million ponys, and counting …

  90. Milty says:

    Getting a pony at the price of Secretariat’s first born. What a shrewd businessman you are, Nyp.

  91. Steve says:

    “14.4 million ponys”
    47 percent is still failing.

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